Radiant Ceiling how to?

Jason Jepsen

I'm a hydronic heating contractor that has not yet installed a ceiling radiant panel. A contractor and I are considering this option for a second story heat zone (new construction, 8' ceilings, ~1000 SF). I know there are prefab 'panels' out there, but I was interested in making it up myself. Is this much different than a floor system (sleepers, tubes, covering (drywall for ceiling)? Or do the tubes get imbedded in plaster? We would prefer a low temperature situation, but can accomodate high temp. if this is preferable. I plan on using 1/2" Kitec.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated - especially construction details. Thanks.

Jason Jepsen, Crestone CO
719-256-4838

GMcD

Best method

Is to use the Karo capillary tubes embedded into a plaster finished ceiling - www.naturalcooling.com - best average surface temperature, and an easy install without plates or warmboard. Just note that it is polypropylene and NOT an oxygen barrier material, so you have to use a plate HEX to separate the plastic piping system from the metal piping and equipment side of the system, and use brass or stainless steel valving and fittings in the plastic side. The end cost is probably the same as other systems at the end of the day.

Trying to do "home made radiant ceiling" with standard 1/2 pex tube can work - do a google search for some details of warm board type panel installs and plates on joists details.

The first step is to spend $$ on the glass and envelope details to reduce the heat losses to the absolute minimum so then you don't need very warm radiant surfaces (and therefore water temps) to get effective heating, no matter what system you end up using. You are handicapping yourself starting out with the stipulation that you have to use the 1/2 pex in the first place.

Constantin

Your best bet, IMHO...

... is to contact the folks at NaturalCooling.com and take a close look at their capillary systems. Their system is very efficient, and can be used to heat and cool a place. Plus, no expansion noises, unlike a sleeper system. The only downside I know of is that you have to have someone plaster the stuff in.

Mark Eatherton1

Is KARO 's use accepted in teh USofA???

I know at one time it wasn't..

Alternatively, you could use the Wirsbo system.

ME

GMcD

Karo

As far as I know it is. The issue of acceptability seems to be local jurisdictions and their reluctance to accept anything new that doesn't have any Code References. I was working with the guys at Natural Cooling in Chicago, who handle the stuff for a proposed large residential development in Florida, and the hitch they ran into was that the local building authority would accept it only if a Florida registered PE stamped and sealed the documents. They couldn't find a Florida PE who was willing to open his mind and deal with hydronic radiant, so I don't think it went anywhere.

Heck it's used all over Europe and the laws of physics, flame and smoke spread, are the same all over the planet, so there is no technical reason that the polypropylene wouldn't be acceptable.

Unknown

using kitec he has basically no expansion noise to worry about. That's a PAP tubing.

If you're trying to use locally available stuff for cheap, strap the ceiling with 1x3s, double the runs you need to put pipe in so a plate can be supported from above on both sides, staple up your plates and put in your pipe. Cheap and quite effective and no need for plaster, the drywallers will love the strapping and your client will love the heat.

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ScottMP

Why not

Use Wirsbo Quick Trac or Stadlers Climate panel ( same thing ) and screw it to the cieling joists.

Why would'nt this work or be as efficient as a Karo system ???

Scott

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Unknown

why spend 3x as much for 1/2 the performance over straight 1/2" pipe and lightweight plates with strapping?

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ScottMP

I don't know

ease of installtion ??

1/2 The performance ??

Are you talking about 1/2" copper tubing ??

Scott

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Unknown

You have less tubing contact with aluminum, and the aluminum fights an additional layer of plywood with quik trak.

Throw up 1x3 strapping (cheap, cheap stuff) and some lightweight plates, eliminate the silicon, put in 1/2" PAP... labor is comparable and the PAP/Plate system performance is far beter. aluminum has much better contact with pipe, and FAR better contact directly to the sheetrock. Plus you've saved a bunch in material costs.

These numbers are right in the wirsbo design book as well; look at radiant ceiling/wall with lightweight plates' output chart vs quik trak radiant wall chart. at 110 degree water you go from 30 BTUs/sq ft with plates to 20 BTUs/sq ft for quik trak. Not strictly half of course. But it is a significant drop in output.

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