Consumers Reports blasts Ionic Breeze

John R. Hall

You will enjoy this latest story about Consumers Reports versus Sharper Image's "Ionic Breeze."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7391185

michael_15

I kind of liked the smell

I sort of liked the ozone smell that these things gave off. At least, for a little while. Of course, some kids like to eat paste, but that's not healthy, either.

The previous owners of my home left bunch of these around the house when I moved in. I didn't know what they were, but the smell bothered me after a while, so I tossed them. Had I known that they were these fancy expensive devices you buy at fancy expensive stores, I would have gone for eBay...

-Michael

BillW@honeywell

Consumer Reports...

had evaluated several of those type of units 2 years ago, with similar conclusions. Hopefully, some homeowners and people with particle-related IAQ problems will read the articles and let that help with their decision.

Matt Clina

I hear that Denzel

Washington bought a bunch of these for a hospital.






I am such a dope.

Jason_15

Ionic Breeze

Is this the same ozone that causes outdoor air quality issues? If that's the case how can they sell these??

Matt Clina

Ozone

Yes, it's the same. It makes the air smell fresh and clean, right before it oxidizes your lungs.

Ozone is just three oxygen atoms stuck together. It quickly degrades into a 'normal' O2 molecule, and a free O atom, which is then looking for something to attach to (oxidize, or burn).

It's funny how many people swear by these things, while many others think they should be illegal. Much like flat rate pricing.

I have no experience or opinion on either.

Ron Schroeder

No experience with the Ionic Breeze, but I have had experience with ozone generators for killing organic odors like from mold and mildew. They do work but only if you close up everything tight and vacate the space while it is running. One killed the smell of a fuel oil spill in a car that nothing else would remove.

Ron

t. tekushan

ozone

As part of my electronics design business, we still service quality equipment like open reel tape decks and well built cassette decks. When someone comes in with a pile of equipment with ALL the belts and rubber parts cracked, broken, and hardened, I ask them if they have one of the Ozone generators. They answer, "How did you know that?" The high ozone levels deteriorates the rubber. Whats it doing to their health?

Now, I use in the shop and home the Electrostatic Precipitator type air cleaners. These are fan driven cleaners. Products like the Trion and the United Air Specialists "Smokeeter" work this way, and produce negligable ozone. They require a carbon filter to deordorize the air because there is no residual ionization of the air as it exits the cell. They remove a tremendous amount of particulates including smoke.

I wouldn't use anything else.

bob_44

Honeywell

electronic air cleaners used to have an adjustable resistor in them that was used to reduce ozone if you had any complaints. I'm not sure about current models. bob

S Ebels

Things that you always knew but...........

Somehow it never clicked. Ever had that.

Turn these three words over in your mind for a while and see what comes floating to the top.

Ozone, which attacks.............

Rubber which is the main ingredient in...........

Onix tubing

I'm scaring myself, but should I warn my customers with Onix to ditch the BionicAir odereater thingy

John R. Hall

Maybe...

...those folks with Entran II piping had the Ionic Breeze. Time to back-check. Call Gus with the CSI team.

Mark Eatherton1

I used to eat glue...

Elmers was my favorite:-)

Other than lock jaw, I never suffered any side effects that I'm aware of. that I'm aware of. that I a wear of. That i wear. That I've worn. Just don't lick the cat if you've been eating glue. The fur balls will kill you.:-)

ME

John R. Hall

ME

is on a Rocky Mountain High.

Mark Eatherton1

Trust me..

It didn't fail due to ozone... It didn't need to. It had heat. That and time are all that's necessary to age any rubber product. The more heat, the less time. The less heat, the longer the time, but it all eventually ends up in the same condition.

It's a known fact that I've owned one vehicle that DIDN'T require rubber hose replacement.

A VW Bug:-)

ME

ScottMP

SO what is the best way

to clean the air in our homes.

Like alot of you I have about twenty things bouceing around in my head at the same time. Its like a PONG game in there, I hit one and move on

I have noticed the amount of dust in my old home. During the winter my wife leaves her bedroom window open a little.In the spring it looks like a cat had slept there.

I have thought about the ionic breeze or a honeywell cleaner. I suppose a life breath would be best ???

Help me .. the ball is coming close and I have to hit it back...

Scott

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John R. Hall

Scotty

Go to Sharper Image and ask an IAQ expert. :-)

Bob_49

Reel-to-reel decks

>> we still service quality equipment like open reel tape decks <<

Back, way back in the closet is my Teac A-7300 10" rtr deck 1/4 track up to 15ips .... from the early 70's .... it was the closest thing back then to non-stop music. Today I can carry 1000's of songs in my shirt pocket!

Bob

BillW@honeywell

Some IAQ info...

Hi, Scott. The dust you can see when you shake out a blanket, or the dust that collects on the dining room table is too heavy to stay in the air long enough to make it to any air cleaner. Electronics excel at removing fine, invisible particles like smoke from cooking, tobacco and candles; the kind of particle that leaves that film that dulls your mirrors and wall coverings. No air cleaner made by anyone will eliminate dusting, period! The electronic cells are washed in a dish washer or with a pressure washer a minimum of twice yearly. Media type filters are less efficient than the electronic type, except for true HEPA filters, but usually, your typical residential HVAC units fan can't handle the additional static pressure, so HEPAS aren't an option. However, whole house hepa's do exist, and have their own fan, independent of the system blower. Our F500 is an example. Media cartridge filters, by many manufacturers are widely available, and offer a decent compromise for those on a budget, but require 2-4 times a year filter cartridge replacement.

UV lights inhibit bioaerosols and help keep the AC coil's condensate pan free of slime and other biologicals. Make sure the pan drains properly, and that the drain line is clear. An energy or heat recovery ventilator exhausts and brings in equal amounts of fresh, outside air, recovering heat and transferring mositure and diluting gases, odors and vapors, something no filter or air cleaner can do.

If you'd like to see our offerings, go to www.customer.honeywell.com, and just follow the prompts. If you'd like more info, drop me an email.

BillW@honeywell

Yes.

They still have that feature, but produce so little ozone that it's seldom needed, plus the air flow thru the cells dilutes it as well. If you want to, a charcoal filter downstream of the EAC will just about eliminate any issue with that. All electrostatic precipitators, by any manufacturer, produce ozone in varying amounts.

Matt_21

bill what would you suggest

i have a hydronic heating system and 2 split system a/c systems. the kids seem to be sick all winter so i was thinking of installing a hrv on my ahu located in the basement and either installing an electronic air filter or a uv light to filter the return air. do the electronic and uv serve different functions? should i install both or one or the other?

Paul Pollets

My advice

The LifeBreath TFP3000 (turbulent flow precipitator) is the best machine for particulate filtration. It can be purchased in a console model, or duct-mounted model. I've used these devices for over 10 years and have not seen a better performing filter, or one that doesn't require constant filter replacement. I invested in a laser particle counter to test particle content, and can attest to it's performance. Since it costs more than $19.95, you won't find it at Home Depot or Sharper Image.
The orginal TFP2000 was branded by Honeywell, but only has 5 collector filter, instead of 6. The TFP is patented, and the technology isn't shared. UV has it's place along with TFP, for maximum IAQ. Much is snake oil. Don't believe a glossy brochure.

Steamhead

Revox!

Haven't used my A77 in years either. It sits there, waiting....

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jerry scharf_3

thanks and some comments

John,

You made my day!

Why ozone is bad for you:

(sorry, this is one of my standard diatribes)

For those asking about Ozone. As someone mentioned, it's 3 Oxygen atoms in a gas rather than the standard 2. It's unstable and will give off a free oxygen that will then oxydize whatever it can. It likes to oxydize lots of things, including the cells on the air transfer surfaces of the lungs. In doing that, it can both trigger lung cancer in predisposed people and can cause problems for people with limited lung capacity like babies and the elderly. You know, the ones who stay at home alot.

The reason ozone is more of a problem than other high energy oxydizers is that it is unstable enough to do damage, but stable enough to hand around in the air. It's half life is about 20 minutes which allows it to build to higher levels. Most other high energy oxydizers have lifetimes in the seconds, so it's hard for them to build up.

How to improve my house air quality:

For what to do for AIQ, it's kind of like saying what should I do to heat my house. First question is are the people in the house healthy? If so, you can go with "the standard package." Mechanical filteration with high capture efficiency. Let's say 90+% of 1 micron particles. (note, this is not to say 90% of particles > 1 micron, it's 90% of 1 micron particles. That's a topic for another diatribe.) Minimum 1 air change per hour (ACH) for the house, ideally more like 2 ACH. I like a UVC (never UVX, it produces ozone) light in the A/C expansion coil to reduce growth there. Outside air ventilation of at least .3 ACH. This is slightly different than the infiltration used for heat loss, because that is run on design day when you have the greatest thermal drive. This needs to happen on all days, so it will probably require some extra leakiness or some ventilation plan. Don't forget to handle the make up air for when the kitchen hood turns on full blast.

Finally you need to deal with all the moisture sources in the house and get them under control. There is the venting of kitchens and baths. I really like the Broan units (possibly availabe from others as well) that have a humidity sensor and turn themselves on (make sure they are big enough.) You can build a setup like this yourself, but for most people having it prepackaged is easier. Then look at all the coutertops, bath and tub surrounds and door thresholds and make sure that there is proper moisture control there.

For people with specific allergic or medical issues, then you need to look at the problems and do some more detailed planning. Dust mites requires a true HEPA filter and nothing short (the feces can be as small as .1 micron.) Mold required higher ACH levels because of the constant introduction on new spores from the outside. Pollen requires central or HEPA vacuum cleaners because they tend to settle and are easily stirred up. Chemical sensitivities can be attacked through photo-catalitic oxydation or active carbon fintration anlong with higher ventilation rates.

Doing it right requires some learning and attention to details, not too different from heating.

enjoy,

jerry

BillW@honeywell

IAQ info

Electronic air cleaners remove particles, and have no effect on gases, odors or vapors. They will NOT eliminate dusting your furniture! UV lights scramble the DNA of passing "bugs" in the airsteam and either kill them or prevent them from multiplying. They also kill and inhibit the slime that can grow in and around the condensate pans of cooling coils. Care should be taken that the coils drain properly, and the drains are kept clear. ER/HR ventilators bring in and exhaust equal amounts of fresh outside air, and recover most of the heating/cooling energy and transfer moisture. The fresh air dilutes odors, gases and vapors.

If your kids are sick all winter,and since hydronic systems don't involve strong air currents driven by a fan that can keep particles floating around indefinitely, you might consider some options, the first of which is getting the kids evaluated by a doctor to find out what may be bothering them. I've often found that people who have allergy problems try to clean their houses excessively, which usually does more harm than good. Extensive vacuum cleaning only blows everything right out the back of the vac, and into the air again. HEPA-filtered vacs are a possible,reasonable solution, but the best is a central vac that exhausts outside. Non-professional carpet cleaning is another culprit, since often the carpeting doesn't dry properly.

Other possibilites can be plant allergies, pet allergies, too little or too much humidity, hidden mold growth, excessive use of household cleaning compounds, dusts from hobbies or crafts, etc.

If you have an air handler and ductwork, any or all of these solutions are possible. Since you have hydronic heat, a reheat coil to take the chill off the air in the ductwork in winter is a possibility, and investing in a thermostat that offers an optional "circulate" fan mode is a good investment.

If you have the split type of AC that has the evaporator coil & fan in a console on your wall, none of the solutions can be used, just keep the filters clean, and consider a single room, true hepa fan-powered unit. Run it on low speed, 24/7, with the door to the room closed. Usual location is the bedroom.

BillW@honeywell

Either would work.

I'm assuming that this air handler serves your whole house for AC, correct? Electonic air cleaners remove particles. They do not eliminate dusting! UV lights scramble the DNA of most passing "bugs" in the air stream, either killing them or rendering them incapable of reproducing. ER/HR ventilators bring in and exhaust equal amounts of fresh outside air and stale indoor air. They are about 80% efficient with heat transfer. They dilute and exhaust gases, odors and vapors.

In hydronic heated homes, the air isn't blown around by a fan on every call for heat, so larger particles tend to settle out, while finer ones stay airborne. You also could add a small hydronic reheat coil to your air handler to temper the discharge in the winter months.

Have your kids checked by a doctor, to find out what may be bothering them. Allergies have many causes, only trained medical personnell can tell what they are.

BillW@honeywell

So does my old TEAC...

With CD's, MP3 and I-pods, it all looks kinda big & clunky today, doesn't it? It recordered a LOT of music in it's day, though!

PJO_6

Clunky...

That's the description management gave of my Infinity Quantam III speakers...then I stacked KLH 7's on top...about 6' plus...like a "Wall" of sound baby!! :-)

A fine Polk Audio subwoofer/satellite system does the duty now - but I sure miss have those extra large plant stands :-)

The old man had a TEAC...he got pissed when I recorded four hours of Aerosmith/Zep/Yes/ZZ Top!!! He recorded over it the next day :-(

Ahhh, the good 'ol days...and my kids think hip-hop is cool...but my teenager and I listen to Green Day together :-)

Take Care, PJO

John R. Hall

Broan Guardian products

Has anyone had any experience with the ERVs, HRVs, or air exchanger under the "Guardian" name from Broan? I've reported on them in the past but have not spoken to anyone who has actually used one or installed one for a customer.

t. tekushan

Ping

Trion makes a desktop electrostatic precipitator type air cleaner. It has a very quiet fan. Of course dust can settle before it hits the cleaner. But here in my shop which is right on the street, I'd have to dust every 3 days. Now its every 3 weeks. I dare say that this is a substantial improvement.

BTW, I have nothing to do with Trion or United Air Specialists. I just like things to be well made and exceed my expectations in function. Thats why I'm a steam junkie, use a metal commercial Royal vacuum cleaner, open reel tape decks, etc. (I'll get to those tape decks in another post)

t. tekushan

Teac 15 IPS

We refurb those units and recalibrate them to the new Quantegy GP9 tape. At 15 ips its dead quiet and unsaturable. The record electronics will distort before the tape does. Digital doesn't have that kind of headroom. We resell them to people with small home studios. Thank goodness there are young people now who have rediscovered the beauty of good analog sound. Use a good Neumann microphone and record onto a hard drive and record simultaneously onto the analog machine and compare. The digital comes up grossly short of the analog.

Ya wanna sell it?

t. tekushan

A77

Does the Revox need a new home?

t. tekushan

Teac

Does the Teac need a new home???

Jon_2

Teac

I have a Teac from my service days, I believe it is still somewhere in one of the closets. It has the 7" reels, are they worth anything?

Matt_21

paul

i saw the lifebreath at ish in boston and was impressed. should i couple that with the lifebreath hrv unit or would it work fine alone. i was thinking with the hrv at least i'm bringing in fresh air. my kids were sick all winter. i know most of the problem is school and contact with other sick kids but i figure part of it has to be the stale air in the house with the kids germs floating around. what do you think?

t. tekushan

teac

A working teac is always worth something. Non working with good heads is also worth something. A-4010S and those similar are usually in the $125 range. The ones that are most desireable are the 10" machines, 15 ips machines, and 4 channel machines. Studer Revox is an exception to this rule because of the higher quality of those machines. Ditto Ampex tube type machines or Crown.

I apologize in advance to wetheads out there whose boxers are in a bunch over this off-topic digression.

jerry scharf_3

looked into them

but they were too small for my filtration needs. When you need a large flow HEPA filer, the Pure Air Systems units are the only HEPA filters I have found. They make them up to 2000 CFM.

jerry

jerry scharf_3

how do they do with small particles

Paul,

The concern I had with the TFPs were with very small particles. Dust mite feces gets down to .1 micron, and I do not have any clear information on how the unit works with that small a particle. HEPAs are rated at 99.97% of .3 microns, and the ones I use are in the 99% range at .1 micron. I am looking for things helping people with medical conditions... It would also take a good amount of rigging to get to the 3-6 ACH for medical filtration for an entire house (say 2000+ CFM.)

I do like the TFPs for a general use, keep the air clean situation. The lower drag compared to HEPAs make installation easier. They are quite good for anything 1 micron or higher.

thanks,
jerry

Mark Eatherton1

My lips...

are sealed:-)

ME

Paul Pollets

To Matt R

The TFP can be attached to an exisitng return plenum on a furnace, or purchased as a stand alone console unit. The console unit will do it's best work locally, and if whole house filtration is required, a ducted system to all habitable rooms works best.