Mud in a Vito

S Ebels

Went to a customer for a first annual inspection of their Vitodens 6-24 today. The boiler was running at absolute low fire when I got there and appeared from the outside to be normal. I popped off the gas valve (3 allen head cap screws) and took out the inducer/burner asembly (4 10mm hex nuts) and took a peak inside to check it out. I personally set up the boiler back in March of 2004 and the original combustion test slip was right in the burner compartment where I has left it. I know it was right.

To my suprise, a look at the combustion chamber revealed about 3/4" of muck on the bottom. It was wet and can best be described as looking and feeling like plain old dirt. Nothing hard or crumbly, just mud. I should have saved some of it but I shop-vac'd it out, then cleaned the HX with "The Works", a mild phosphoric acid using a brush and rinsing with clear water til it ran clear from the condensate drain tube. No soot on the burner dome or on the HX, No discoloration indicating a hot spot. The HX that wasn't under the mud was a light brown color which came off with just a brush stroke or two with the cleaner. Again, I wouldn't call it soot.

I called James at Viessmann and he said he had never heard of such a thing. We went through the normal checklist, gas pressure, gas inlet screen plugged, vent restricted. Everything checked OK. He advised I call Reza in Waterloo and he and I did the same rundown. Static gas pressure in the house was 12" (LP) and the lowest reading I could get with all gas appliances turned on including the boiler was 10.5"w.c. I did several combustion tests after cleaning, some with everything else on, some with just the boiler running at both idle and WOT. They all yielded typical Vitodens numbers. 2-3 PPM CO, eff in the 90's, CO2 and O2 were normal. Flue temp about 3-4 degrees above boiler water temp indicating good heat transfer.

So I'm thinking this has to be an environmental contaminant. Dust, dirt, something in the gas? But Reza told me they have better consistency with LP than they do with natural these days. (Hear that Timmie?) I'm convinced from how clean the boiler is operating that the muck couldn't have been anything from in the boiler combustion process. Wondering if any of you have some idea of what external conditions could make this show up.

BTW, did I mention that field dressing and gutting a Vito takes a total of about 4 minutes? It has to be the nicest condenser on the market to service. 3 Allen head cap screws remove the gas valve. 4 10mm hex nuts, unplug the wires and the whole inducer/burner assembly is in your hand. None of these fasteners are hidden behind another part, all easily accessible. Typical Viessmann design. Too cool!!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Horizontal or vertical venting?

ALH_3

Dust

There wouldn't happen to be a garden or field nearby? I could see dust getting sucked in the intake and turning to mud when it hits the condensate.

-Andrew

ScottMP

I think

we are seeing the beginning of a servicing condition that is particular to condensing boilers. This just seems too close to the Munchkin "mouse turds" and the last post on a substance found in a Vitodens. I am not saying this is a design flaw in any piece of equipment, but a conditon that is created by the condensing equipment.

The strange thing is that the Munchkin design and the Vitoden have been in service ( or so we are told ) in Europe and no one seems to have an idea about this. I can not beleive the enviroment in Europe is cleaner than in the USA .

I think all of us who have installed condensing equipment should schedule servicing of the installed equipment and report back Here to The Wall. Lets see how common this is.

Scott

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hr

I'm convinced

it has something to do with what they inhale. How well does the cover seal on that unit? Inside air quality?

Maybe it the proximity to coal fired power plants that holds the key ??

I wish I had taken this residue to a lab before I discarded it. It soils the HX surfaces, plugs the condensate drains, can't be good for the appliance.

We need to get to the bottom of this before we start getting failures in the field, and newspapers!

hot rod

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Glen

environment

I have noticed this as well - not just in the Vitodens. It is my observation that agricultural areas, livestock operations in particular, will have a dirty boiler. We service many vertomats - the ones on or near a farm or ranch - need a good cleaning every year. The urban ones or those not near ag areas are generally pristine.

Ken_8

Excellent idea!

Sharing our findings on what we see inside these condensing beauties would be a great resource for us - and the manufacturers.

Maybe Dan could setup a condensing boiler burner only "Blog" site?

How cool would THAT be!

I may have just wet myself...

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ScottMP

That happens

The older you get. lolololol

Scott

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Ed Goldner, NJ

Gunk

I dont know about other condensing boilers, but when I installed my Munchkin there was no mention about avoiding dryer vents. It may be common sense but I had to change my termination plans because of my existing dryer vent.

Weezbo

So it was \"seconded it\" Lets vote lets vote AYE....

i will go get the pics on the condensate gunk in the ultras....it has to have something to do with the atmosphere they are breathing ...

joel_19

not surprised

this has always been a problem on equipment it is not unique to condensors. Very common to see build up in oil boilers that is a result of the air. the old glowcores had an air intake filter to help with this. I've thought of it on oil problem is as your filter gets dirty everything else would go out of wack and you'd soot big time.

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jerry scharf_3

Garbage in, garbage sticks

Steve,

I think everyone is coming to the same conslusion, when you suck dust in to a consensing boiler, it makes muck. I'm guessing with a cast iron boiler, there's neither the moisture nor the close passages to trap the fine stuff, so it just flows right out the stack in most cases.

One friend has a theory that the concentric vents taken out the roof are more suceptable to this than sidewall vents, but we have people reporting problems with both.

So the next logical step is to add an air fitler to the system. How would this be monitored and changed? I have some thoughts about this, but it looks like something the manufacturers have to take up. I talked to one manufacturer who is working on it right now.

It's an interesting question as to why this is not a problem in Europe.

Steve, you also bring out another great point that was between the lines. You found this because you did an annual service. Does this need to become part of the operating requirement for these units? Will manufacturers start to couple warranty claims to propor annual service?

jerry

jerry scharf_3

Garbage in, garbage sticks

Steve,

I think everyone is coming to the same conslusion, when you suck dust in to a consensing boiler, it makes muck. I'm guessing with a cast iron boiler, there's neither the moisture nor the close passages to trap the fine stuff, so it just flows right out the stack in most cases.

One friend has a theory that the concentric vents taken out the roof are more suceptable to this than sidewall vents, but we have people reporting problems with both.

So the next logical step is to add an air fitler to the system. How would this be monitored and changed? I have some thoughts about this, but it looks like something the manufacturers have to take up. I talked to one manufacturer who is working on it right now.

It's an interesting question as to why this is not a problem in Europe.

Steve, you also bring out another great point that was between the lines. You found this because you did an annual service. Does this need to become part of the operating requirement for these units? Will manufacturers start to couple warranty claims to propor annual service?

jerry

S Ebels

Annual service

It's a mandatory thing with any brand of condenser I sell. The customer is told right up front that it's part of owning a high efficiency piece of equipment. Face it, anytime you run anything on the "ragged edge" so to speak, it requires diligent maintenance, period. It doesn't matter if you are talking about a train, a stock car, an automated milling machine or your wife's dishwasher, if a thing is mechanical in nature and it's working to the max, it needs to be maintained. There is no margin for error.

Back to the discussion. What baffles me is that if there are contaminants coming in from the outside air, why was the burner "dome" in the Vito clean as a whistle? Any airborne junk has to go through the "screen" on the burner in a Vitodens. Does the burner vaproize it during combustion? Do the "ashes" then coagulate in the combustion chamber? I don't know but I would like to. BTW, the inside of the flue pipe was as white as snow. No sign whatsoever of soot or poor combustion.

The boiler in question is dialed in perfectly. The highest CO reading I could get was on startup and that only hit 20-25 PPM. After startup it ran in the 2-3 neighborhood. Gas pressure in a Vito matters a little but not much from what I have seen. The burner and burner control compensate for about anything that can possibly happen. Which brings up another thought.

The burner and control "compensate" for about about any circumstance on a Vito. This is a good thing but I'm wondering......... What if a homeowner or the LP gas company let's the tank get down right to the bottom to where pressure really starts to fall off? Will the burner continue to compensate to the point of starting to run a little cruddy?

S Ebels

Horizontal

The flue exits the boiler directly into an elbow and proceeds 14' horizontal to termination. Slope is good. No sign of restriction of incoming air.

The boiler is in a rural/suburban setting. About a half mile to a mile north of the place it is solid ag use. Probably 20-30 sq miles of cultivated land. The lady of the house said to her knowledge the interior cover has not been off since installation. It is hung adjacent to her office so I suspect she would know. As you are aware Mike, the Vito is truly a sealed combustion unit so interior air contamination would be nearly impossible.

S Ebels

C'mon Ken

We're supposed to be wet HEADS, not wet bottoms.

Sarcasm duly noted and filed away for future use.

Al Corelli

That isn't urine, it is condensation!

Dave Yates (PAH)

One good thing about my GlowCore

was that it had an air filter on the combustion air intake. My Munch draws in via a 30' run & no deposits - to date have been seen. But, I'm not near any construction or road dust either.

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Unknown

That was one big mouse !!!

Do you think that this pile of poop was sucked in from the outside or through the gaps in the jacket? I'm not feeling so well after looking at that pile of stuff. YUCK !!!. One of the reasons I stopped cleaning drains was because I couldn't handle the filth any more. Hope it didn't smell as bad as it looks.

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hr

Didn't the GlowCore

have a filter that looked like a Caterpiller diesel air filter? Could it be this simple that a filter is found, or built, that provides the correct pressure drop to allow the unit enough air?

Of course a "dirty filter" indicator would be a nice feature. Seems to me reducing the intake air mainly reduces the BTU output of the unit, no harm done. Similar to when you downsize the vent to 2" according to the manufactures tables?

I'd rather start walking the filter road, including maintenance, than tell the customer a yearly, or more frequent $200 teardown, clean and recalibrate will be needed for ther life of the unit.

Maybe Fram could design a washable filter of some sort. It could be installed in a large PVC Y- strainer looking device for quick and easy service.

Heck, maybe a plain furnace filter in the back door of the Munchkin would be enough, if the cabinet were sealed better?

hot rod

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Mark Eatherton1

Ya don't think...I

It might have soomething to do with all the ammonia nitrates and uric acid nitrites, along with a little suspended solids, kick in a little constant breeze (which there ALWAYS is) and VIOLA, ya got your VitoMud cocktail.

I sent some samples into Munchkin land to see if they could identify it. I'm getting ready to tear into the bowels of my Lil Muncher. I'll try and document it digitally with my new $300.00 camera.

I think we need to get used to it and just live with it. These ARE high maintenance machines. So are Ferraris and Testerosa's. Ask me, cause according to Ken I own a couple of them...someplace. They sure the heck ain't been where I've been:-)

Sounds like a need for replaceable filters. That would at least avoid blockage of the condensate ways. You'd still have to service the filters, and you'd know when youu forgot to service the filters, because these lil puppies wil shut down, and the consumers going to be on the horn about no hot water:-(

But, thats the way it goes. If you ignore it, the heat WILL go away:-)

Let's see, oil bath filters, or dry paper... Flat or round??

Electrostatic or non...

ME

S Ebels

Or..........

Some type of centrifugal filter that precipitates the crud out by rotating the airflow. This actually wouldn't need a filter per se. Just the rotation of the incoming air stream to swirl the dirt out into a removable canister. A filter setup that needs to be changed would not be a good thing given the condition I usually see furnace filters in.

hr

Like a farm tractor pre filter, Steve?

maybe we could use the exhaust gases to "spin the bottle"

Maybe "Radiant What The Heck" in Vt could spin the concept so we get free cooling out of that incoming air stream in the summer:)

hot rod

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Did the "mud" stain the HZ?

Just put my boiler into standby until next heating season. Opened the combustion chamber again and cleaned again with CLR and nylon brush. (Haven't yet found the Antox locally.) No more particles. The CLR doesn't affect the small "rust-colored" stains at the back-rear and top-center of the HX coils. To my fingers and fingernail those areas are perfectly smooth--just like the rest of the stainless.

Did find a tiny bit of red-brown "mud" in the rainfall sensor that measures the condensate. There's also a trail of the same "rust-colored" stain wherever the condensate flowed--including the boiler's condensate line. Repeated dousing with CLR and lots of rubbing does not remove these stains either.

Noticed something for the 2nd time today. Quite a bit of air entering the boiler through the exhaust portion of the flue. Both times I've opened, there's been a decent wind from the West--the direction the horizontal flue faces.

Maybe--just maybe, contaminate particles are entering the air outlet when the boiler is off to be washed back in by the condensate (or even rain) flowing back to the boiler. Perhaps a lot of pollen in the spring. The same particles entering the inlet may well be completely vaporized by the burner.

S Ebels

That's what I was thinking of..........

Something along those lines. After considering though, I doubt if there is enough velocity in the airstream to get the desired effect.

RWTH, a new acronym for everyones favorite purveyors of "magic" radiant junk and other assorted hocus pocus, abra cadabra type inventions.

curious_2

condensing dirt

i,m not aware of this hapenning with condensing furnaces.

they been out for a decade

spoke to tom johnson at lennox. he wasnt aware of a hot air condensing issue??????????????

S Ebels

I've seen many

How many gunked up condensate traps have you changed or cleaned? We get probably 30-40 no heat calls a season due to crud fouling the tubing, trap or condensate pan causing lockout on the pressure switch(es). Some designs are worse than others to be sure but it happens fairly often in our part of the country. The worst offenders are units that are not direct vented with intake and exhaust both exiting the structure.

Boilers have a closer tolerance in the gaps of the HX than is typical of a tubular type secondary HX in a furnace. This may lead to a more frequent buildup in the boiler side of the family.

There is a tremendous difference also in having a primary HX that may be a serpentine tube 8' long to combust the junk before it hits the secondary HX. In a Vitodens, nearly the entire HX condenses. In theory the condensate would help "wash" the HX clean but I think in instances of mondo amounts of airborne gorvno, the washing action is overcome.

curious_2

self clean

what do you think of triangle presige's exchsanger design
fire tube self clean. look at their color brochure on their site
look under library

Dan Foley

90+ furnaces

Like Steve, I too have cleaned dozens (maybe hundreds) collector boxes, drain tubes and condensate traps of 90+ furnaces that had clogged up. The worst offenders had a "brown slime" that would grow in the collector box and drain tubes. I don't know if it was some type of mold, algae or bacteria but it would clog the drain in a hurry. The trick was to put a piece of 10 ga. copper wire or a short piece of flattened 3/8" copper in the collector box after it was thoroughly cleaned and flushed. The copper would slowly leach killing anything that could grow in the drain line. -DF

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Glenn Harrison_2

Thanks for the tip, Dan.

I have never hears the copper trick before, I'll have to try that next fall.I constantly am seeing older Carrier 90% units with the sliming problem.

Just out of curiosity, how did you find out about the copper trick? After 14 years, I have never heard of it.

Glenn Harrison_2

Thanks for the tip, Dan.

I have never hears the copper trick before, I'll have to try that next fall.I constantly am seeing older Carrier 90% units with the sliming problem.

Just out of curiosity, how did you find out about the copper trick? After 14 years, I have never heard of it.

Dan Foley

Glenn

Glenn,

I wish I could tell you I was smart enough to think this one up on my own. The truth is I learned this at my previous employer many years ago. We installed hundreds of Carrier 58SX 90+ furnaces and had recurring problems with drains and traps blocking with the dreaded "brown slime". The copper trick came up at one of our service meetings but I do not recall who thought of it. It might have been our local Carrier tech rep. -DF

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Constantin

It's a great trick...

... antifouling paint on ships works on the same principle. The higher the copper content of the paint (usually cuprous oxide now that the old Tin combos have been outlawed) the better the anti-fouling properties.

Bob_41

Copper AND SIlver - Algaecide and baceteriastat

The use of metals in water purification has been around for ages .... Copper and silver vessels containing coins, showed a remarkable tendency to keep the water free of algae and in a drinkable condition for extended periods of time.

Copper is a well known algaecide and is commonly used to control algae in lakes and reservoirs. It is also the active ingredient in many swimming pool algaecides. A trace level of 0.2 ppm copper is typically needed to control algae.

Silver and many of its compounds have unique antimicrobial properties and are commonly used in modern medicine. A level of approximately 0.015 ppm silver is used to control bacteria.

So in addition to that sacrificial piece of copper drop in a piece of silver and you'll also control the bacteria that eventually produce that distintictive odor.

The use of ionization for water purification was pioneered in the 60s by NASA. Its been used in the pool industry and can eliminate the need for large amounts of chlorine.

Bob

Dan_15

Mud

Just a thought here. Could this "brown mud" be from the gas, which is picking it up in the black pipe used to feed the appliance. In the units that have had this issue, is black pipe being used?

Mark Eatherton1

Good point...

I know the three Vitos we have in Grand Junction were requiring regular inlet filter cleanings. Maybe theres a need for a gas filter as well as an inlet air filter. These things ARE afterall simply high efficiency converters.

Thanks to Viessmann for traveling all the way to GJ and addressing my problems. Service above and beyond IMHO.

ME