GB 142 vs. Massachusettes plumbing inspectors

Robert O'Connor_3

FYI, a boiler company whose name begins in a V and ends in an N has written a letter to the MA state plumbing board which contains pics of the buderus gb142 boiler, and how it doesn't yet have the 'H' stamp to make it an approved heating device. So, inspectors are now on the lookout for this boiler. The certain town we were working in gave us a variance to install the boiler because the HO's where really hooked on getting the GB put in. So, we got really lucky. Does anyone know what the asme's 'h' stamp proves anyway? isn't it just a 2 times working pressure test? (60 psi) I think the fact that the GB is dry fired for 24 hours in germany makes it more than applicable for use here.

Constantin

If anything,

I hope that the US can manage to get one code approval for the whole country instead of the patchwork it has now. It's absolutely ludicrous how the various authorities cannot come down from their respective positions and put something together that allows speedy market entry for all manufacturers.

I don't know if Viessmann did or did not write that letter as I'm not on the board. Are there minutes of the meetings to this effect? Even if they wrote it, I wonder what motivated the letter from Viessmann other than that if they had to jump through multiple hoops to get their boiler into MA, then so should everyone else.

I found the ASME boiler test on the assembly line at HTP a bit underwhelming. If it's just a pressure test as is implied, then it means nothing at all with modern non-steam boilers, other than an additional cost for certification and a commensurate price hike.

I am surprised to hear that the boiler is dry-fired for 24 hours. Such abuse does not harm the Al heat exchanger or the seals they use? Surely, you mean that the thing is test-fired with water in it if the test is that long, right?

Mad Dog

Currently it is approved as a \"water heater\"

and "boiler" rating is imminent - so I am told. So, in that case, as long as the Mass code permits water heaters to be used as a heating source, you should get by. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ted_9

As far as I know, there are not allowed as a heat source.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

marc

why not wait???

Why wouldnt buderus wait until they get the H stamp approval for this boiler, seems like they are in a rush to start selling them here. our local inspectors will not allow a heating boiler without an H stamp. marc.

joel_19

Stamp

As far as I know if it's not stamped a boiler it's not a boiler and doesn't pass for heating. I thought it kind of funny that another big N.E.company was pushing water heaters as boilers in our state , sold to unsuspecting H.O.s When they are not even legal for install as far I know.
Many local inspectors may not know this , having this pointed out to them is a good thing it protects the inspector , and the homeowners ,and unaware contractors as well. I can see a boiler company doing this. If they invest the money to meet the codes and are loosing sales to a competitor that has not met the code than why not protect your investment by letting the governing body know?
If you lost a job that you know permits wheren't pulled on and the job was not even close to code your not tempted to make a little phone call?

jesse the great

gb 142

I was under the impression that the gb was not allowed to be installed in MA because of an incident having to do with a power-vented unit killing a girl in the cape by the snow covering the exhaust and CO in the house.

ScottMP

I am sure we will here

from Buderus on this, but thats my understanding also.

I have heard Noting about Viessmann and a sour eggs letter. I would be supprissed if it were true. Thats not their style.

My understanding was after the incident this winter the Politicians want to get involved so they can wave theri arms and say " Look I am getting involved ". Once again getting involved in something they don't understand and are too late to be of any help.

There are plenty of DV applainces allready on the market. But the talking heads say no more, untill we undersatnd whats going on. Great, that could take a while.

Buderus is not "in a hurry ". We have been waiting for this product for about two years now, while they have been making sure it is correct for the American market.

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Firedragon_4

The bottom line

is that in MA and almost any state or province that has a Building Code or an adopted code, BOCA, CABO, IAPMO, etc. the ASME 'H' stamp rules the day.

In addition, those same codes state that all valves must be ASME 'HV', all pressure vessels must be 'H' or 'P' stamped and if you're in a nuke plant everything better be stamped with an ASME 'N'.

This has to do with safety and IMO quality. ASME not only checks designs etc., but also has on-site inspectors to make sure that what was certified is what goes out the door. Again, only my opinion but why wouldn't we want that not only for our customers, but also for ourselves.

The Plumbing Board has a list of equipment that is approved for water heating only and it is extensive.

It also has a list for approved boilers, but nobody really knows why since the Building Code supercedes all others and it demands ASME for 'space heating' boilers, emphasis on the 'space heating'.

Finally, there's the list for 'combination duty' units that do both DHW and space heating. This list is not that long.

The one thing I had drummed into me a few years ago was that a water heater may have all kinds of approvals and meet all kinds of guidelines, but if it's going to meet the Building Code, it's gotta have that 'H' stamp.

The Plumbing Board does a great job, but with limited resources it's hard sometimes and they being human like the rest of us make goofs.

In the lawsuit I'm referencing even the plumbing inspector and city were severly reprimanded for for allowing a combo unit for being used for heating. The Building Code is the 600 lb, gorilla, FACT!

www.mass.gov/bbrs/code.htm

www.firedragonent.com

Firedragon_4

The bottom line

is that in MA and almost any state or province that has a Building Code or an adopted code, BOCA, CABO, IAPMO, etc. the ASME 'H' stamp rules the day.

In addition, those same codes state that all valves must be ASME 'HV', all pressure vessels must be 'H' or 'P' stamped and if you're in a nuke plant everything better be stamped with an ASME 'N'.

This has to do with safety and IMO quality. ASME not only checks designs etc., but also has on-site inspectors to make sure that what was certified is what goes out the door. Again, only my opinion but why wouldn't we want that not only for our customers, but also for ourselves.

The Plumbing Board has a list of equipment that is approved for water heating only and it is extensive.

It also has a list for approved boilers, but nobody really knows why since the Building Code supercedes all others and it demands ASME for 'space heating' boilers, emphasis on the 'space heating'.

Finally, there's the list for 'combination duty' units that do both DHW and space heating. This list is not that long.

The one thing I had drummed into me a few years ago was that a water heater may have all kinds of approvals and meet all kinds of guidelines, but if it's going to meet the Building Code, it's gotta have that 'H' stamp.

The Plumbing Board does a great job, but with limited resources it's hard sometimes and they being human like the rest of us make goofs.

In the lawsuit I'm referencing even the plumbing inspector and city were severly reprimanded for for allowing a combo unit for being used for heating. The Building Code is the 600 lb, gorilla, FACT!

http://mass.gov/bbrs/code.htm

www.firedragonent.com

Firedragon_4

The bottom line

is that in MA and almost any state or province that has a Building Code or an adopted code, BOCA, CABO, IAPMO, etc. the ASME 'H' stamp rules the day.

In addition, those same codes state that all valves must be ASME 'HV', all pressure vessels must be 'H' or 'P' stamped and if you're in a nuke plant everything better be stamped with an ASME 'N'.

This has to do with safety and IMO quality. ASME not only checks designs etc., but also has on-site inspectors to make sure that what was certified is what goes out the door. Again, only my opinion but why wouldn't we want that not only for our customers, but also for ourselves.

The Plumbing Board has a list of equipment that is approved for water heating only and it is extensive.

It also has a list for approved boilers, but nobody really knows why since the Building Code supercedes all others and it demands ASME for 'space heating' boilers, emphasis on the 'space heating'.

Finally, there's the list for 'combination duty' units that do both DHW and space heating. This list is not that long.

The one thing I had drummed into me a few years ago was that a water heater may have all kinds of approvals and meet all kinds of guidelines, but if it's going to meet the Building Code, it's gotta have that 'H' stamp.

The Plumbing Board does a great job, but with limited resources it's hard sometimes and they being human like the rest of us make goofs.

In the lawsuit I'm referencing even the plumbing inspector and city were severly reprimanded for allowing a combo unit to be used for heating. The Building Code is the 600 lb, gorilla, FACT!

And in addition don't forget this little guy: 522 CMR - Boiler Rules

http://mass.gov/bbrs/code.htm

www.firedragonent.com

I'm not a plumber, but I am a code freaky!

Ken_8

Are you suggesting,

"The best engineered boiler in the world," cannot pass muster and get an "H" stamp?

Something every American made boiler easily gets?

Don't even respond. Case closed.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Firedragon_4

C'mon Ken,

I never said that, I'm quite sure they are working on it and will get it in time.

Getting a boiler through the process of the National Board of ASME is a daunting and expensive task.

I've pushed one through myself and it was something. And then, comes the DOE/IBR testing. After 15 years in the trade I became a lab-rat for 6 months to do that, quite a learning experience.

I truly believe ASME is a necessary thing and it is world-wide.

I'm slowly losing faith in UL however and think that if a 'World Economy Product' can get a TUV label we should be able to sell it here without further testing.

If Buderus or anyone else has a TUV it should end at that and the Fed's at OSHA feel likewise. Now, it's just a matter of recognition with local code regulators and this too shall come.

Constantin

But Firedragon...

You are suggesting a sensible solution to a problem that many people inside the industry don't want solved. If the introduction of new product was easy, then more competitors would show up on the US market. Plus, there would be a whole bunch of people whose expertise in guiding foreign or domestic product through the approval process would suddenly be in much lower demand.

If anything, I hope that some sensible federal standards can be pushed through that eliminate the patchwork of state and local regulations that hamper the US. I think it would be to the benefit of everyone if the code was national so that technicians can focus on making compliant installs instead of worrying about what local regulation and/or inspectors potentially self-perscribed wishes they have to meet this time.

Furthermore, one national standard for boiler installations would also be in the interest of the inspectors since it would greatly simplify that which is allowed vs. that which is not. We speak often about the conflict between installer and inspector (where permits were pulled), so to the extent that we can streamline the process for everyone, we should.

Don't even get me started on licensing issues and other means that are used to line local tax coffers and to exclude out-of-state competition in the plumbing, medical, law, and other fields.

I also have lost a lot of faith in the UL standard since I got to better understand how that organization is funded. I lament the obvious conflict of interest that being paid for the testing entails, and the UL2034 standard proves it. I'm not sure how the T

hr

UL is still

the listing that most insurance companies worship, and bow to.

I agree on the TUV however, this should reciprocate here in the U.S. I've heard they have a branch or office in Michigan perhaps??

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Firedragon_4

Consider this hot rod,

UL is a TUV approved lab under TUV's ISO program, what's that tell ya?

http://www.tuvamerica.com/home.cfm

hr

With this rapidly expanding Global market place

would it not be nice to have one certification accepted world wide. Maybe TUV can pull that off. looks like, country-wise they are off to a good start.

The euro wood boilers I sell have this listing, looks to me every bit as good, or better than UL and ASME combined?

Consider these Weil boilers I'm fabbing. I've yet to find a component with a U.S. label. I think even the manufacture is Canadian owned.

Be nice if every component and the assembled package were listed by the same agency, regardless of the country of origin! Where all the departments spoke and agreed on the goal of consumer safety.

I nominate you to look into that, George

hot rod



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Firedragon_4

No thanks hot rod,

way over my head, FACT!

Does that unit have an ASME stamp?

Ken_8

George,

I responded under your thread, but my comments were not aimed at your post. I apologize for not being more specific. Having qualified that I am not responding to your post...

I am amazed at the blatant hypocrisy of those who suggest our native boilers are inferior to the euro's - and in the next breath, admit the euros cannot even meet our absolutely minimal "standards" (which are anything but exclusionary) When in reality, is why American manufactured goods, cannot be sold in most of europe, because THEIR regulations are designed purely from the protectionist (and blatantly exclusionary) euro-first agenda/motive!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Firedragon_4

You're right Ken,

and I didn't take it personal, just don't like hanging threads :-)

BTW, I've been over there several times and worked and talked to techs and Metric/Decimal has a lot to do with it I'm sad to say, FACT!

When will they ever learn?

Constantin

It's pretty ironic...

... that the US is the last industrialized nation on earth to insist on using the imperial system for most of its measurements. The last president to advocate a switch (Carter) was ridiculed to no end for it. Nowadays, the federal government allegedly specifies everything in metric dimensions, up to and including spec'ing letter-sized paper in mm.

That being said, standards can and have been written to keep foreign competition out. My favorite to date were all the different plugs that various national telco and electricial utilities insisted on until recently in the EU. Many issues like this continue to be streamlined and standardized across the EU, a process I hope the US can imitate with its national standards.

This is not to say that all the EU nationstates were happy about such changes. For example, the Germans were irate about allowing beer to be sold in Germany that did not meet the Reinheitsgebot, the French were up in arms about the requirement to pasteurize cheese, never mind the bruhaha about what is and isn't chocolate. Various constituencies in the US would have to give up pet projects in a similar manner, so that process is not easy to accomplish on a national basis, nevermind international.

For me, the biggest issue is not the standards themselves but the attitude of those who take to writing them. For example, DIN/ASME/UL/T

Glen

buderus school

just attended a Buderus school in Calgary. It was my understanding that the cast iron boilers are dry fired - I can't imagine why anyone would want to dry fire a cast aluminum heat exchanger. That's just plain silly. But re the ASME stamp - here in B.C. we have a new regime to inspect boilers and gas installs. Our company is just now in the middle of a Certification - to be an "official" boiler contractor. Our boiler code (national) insists on the installation of approved appliances. Add in the national hydronics code, gas code, provincial recommendations either from the Alberta Hydronics Council or the Residential Hot Water Heating Association of B.C. - and I will agree that the 142 is not yet a boiler. And while it seems like a great product - it should be installed with full knowledge by the contractor and HO that it is not a boiler. That said - what about the other aluminum based boilers? Are they all stamped and certified - I don't know as we don't use them, don't even look at the advertsing bumpf. We advertise only one boiler on our vans right now - but are willing to closely examine others - regardless - my liability insurance is steep enough without the added responsibilty of installing a non approved boiler. (it makes heat, contains pressure, and has a relief - which by my definition is a pressure vessel eg a boiler) Until such time it is approved - caveat emptor.

DH

Where are the words from Buderus.

I would like to see some words from Joe or Dave @ Buderus regarding the GB142 HEATER. How far away are you at getting the 'H' Stamp approval for the heater? From my understanding it is only certified as a Instantanous water heater. The rating plate shows a recovery per hour rating. Are you marketing this as a water heater or a space heating boiler? If you market it as a water heater why is it not mentioned in the literature or in any of the installation and operations manuals?. Does Buderus approve the GB142 for direct connect to potable applications like the Rinnai or Takagi products? I find this misleading and have concerns that someone will try to install the boiler(Cast Aluminium heat exchanger)in a questionable potable system.If the 'H'Stamp is coming why not tell your distributers first so they can decide if the unit can be sold with the appropriate approvals - no surprises!

DH

S Ebels

Ken

There's another side of the coin to look at. Consider Wieshaupt burners. They have an electronic control burner available that is sold everywhere except here in the US. It is a SWEET unit and in reality far exceeds any and all UL testing and specs. Why is is not sold here? It's like a Mexican standoff and it goes like this.

Weishaupt says "Ve vant to sell our burner in da US"

UL says. "Fine, send us some for testing along with the source code for your electronics program".

Mr Weishaupt's eyebrows go up and says, "Ve Vill send burner but no source codes, they could be stolen und sold to competitors".

UL says. "Well if you would like to sell your burners here we need the source codes too."

Mr Weishaupt says, "You arrogant American pigs are full of shiza!!! (Not really) What they did say was that the American market for their high tech burner is too small to risk having their coding stolen.

So we poor contractors wind up unable to play with a neat burner because of UL demanding something they don't need and Weishaupt not wanting to risk losing trade secrets.

Always more than meets the eye to a lot of issues. It would be simpler if everything in the world were black and white.

Constantin

Well, it would be one thing...

... if UL would sign an NDA, accept worldwide responsibility for all damages should the code be leaked, etc. but I doubt they'd do that. Plus, given their position, funding pattern, and history of a revolving door in and out of the industries they "regulate", I too would balk at the notion of showing them something as sophisticated and specialized as the source code.

On the other hand, reverse-engineering the behavior wouldn't be that difficult... and presumably a number of competitors have broken the units down, analyzed the black box behavior, etc. already. However, that's a lot more work than reading through the source code, for sure.

dconnors

We are addressing all of your concerns....

We are in process for the H stamp. Currently the GB142 is a heater. Like others before us it will take time to get through the red tape. The process is tedious and then you have to deal with the states as well. We dont suggest using this equipment as an instantaneous hot water heater. So far we have had great results from the field.
we expected as much because this is a tried and proven heater. As always we will continue to expand our offering with new components to accomodate all installation requirements. thanks

Weezbo

off topic....

many older boilers are still in operation to this day that have no ASME alphabet soup or any inclination of asme.....hey now someone put these things together by thier set of standards ,now were they here to listen to such abstracts on the value of an f or h or m or * from some test agentcy i have the distinct feeling they would hear this out shake thier heads, and walk out the door.
for the most part, having standards and tests are a good thing yet to make very moot almost undividable hair spliting distinctions that do not add in any way to the preformance or functionality of the equipment while wonderful for employment opportunities that never existed ,are really only about vying for credence of "authority"....are we to belive for an example that we should outright reject all simple machines and torque and tension because it wasnt given sanction by the "authority" consider for a momment losing the snivelers and king snivelers objections who decide that the dishwasher can make steam buh it doesnt make enough to run their entire condominium and want to sue some one because it wasnt having a boiler plate with the appropriate letter of the alphabet stapled to the chassis....Yet who would argue that they even thought of doing such a thing in the first place and had any success whatsoever, wasnt a very interesting and somewhat intriguing utilization of the product? in other words some of this argumentation indeed has value, however, intelligent people will continue to use thier own minds to see the good in life and put things to thier best use even if it may not agree with current international trade agreements or the current political proponents of the day. Redundancy of testing doesnt necessarily make a product any better nor does excessive buracratic paper shuffeling and foot dragging make a good application of a product to be installed safely. manufacturers arent looking for a Miracle .. well.....thats just some of my thoughts on "innovative utilizations" and "Authoritative recognition" and juxapositioning of machines which supply a need effectively, safe and securely. i am here to learn and improve so if you see some major mistake i bought into fine tune me a bit...

Firedragon_4

I can believe

that there are boilers up there that have no 'H' stamp.

I know of one that was very popular in Canada called a 'Frank's Boiler' that for sure wasn't. I know that because we tried to import them in the 1980's and it wouldn't work here in the 'Big City' (Northeast).

The problem is down here on the flat-land Weezbo we do have inspectors and insurers on every street corner.

In all the years I've worked the East Coast I can honestly say that I've never worked on a boiler that didn't have an 'H', and further wouldn't want to, JMO!

Considering that I've always worked in the Northeast (mostly New England) and that CT is the insurance state and the home of the Hartford Steam Boiler co. I won't take that chance.

When I also factor in that I live and work 3 miles from the headquarters of the Mutual Boiler Insurance Company and 15 miles from FM Global, no thanks to non-approved equipment of any kind!

Michael_6

Korean boilers

Does anyone know if the Kyong Dong boilers are approved. I believe that is who makes the boiler for BUDERUS..
for those of you who like to check out dongs...
www.kdboiler.com