Boiler Water Quality Testing?

S Davis

What if any testing do you guy's do on water quality for your systems, and what test equipment and boiler treatment products do you use?


S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

S Davis

?

Nobody?


S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

tls_9

Here

http://www.greatlakestreatment.com/

Great people, give them a call

hr

At the very least

you want to check the hardness of the intended fill water. Hach test kits are cheap and easy, Graingers has them.

PH is becoming more of a concern with aluminum and other mixed metal systems. I use a digital ph stick meter for this.

I keep a few empty drinking water bottles on the truck. Save your bottled water containers for this.

First thing on the job I draw a sample and set it aside. Check it at the end of the day. Often on homes with new wells you will get a layer of silt on the bottom of the bottle. Not good! for hydronic systems.

Chlorides are becoming more of an issue with stainless boilers and indirects. Many stainless indirects now have warning labels indicating acceptable levels before warranty is void. I understand high chlorine content is also bad for stainless.

Another source of chlorides is a faulty, or improperly adjusted water softener. Most back wash with salt, if this is not completely backwashed after the brine rinse this will cause problems sooner or later.

I need to find the proper meter to site check chloride levels.

I suspect a pool test kit would handle chlorine levels?

If any or all of these conditions are presents, I haul water in a 50 gallon plastic barrel for my hydronic fill. My home water after an iron filter and other treatments is fairly good quality. If in doubt and with glycols I purchase DI (deionized) water for about 12 cents a gallon locally. They fill my barrel in the truck or sell 5 gallon pails.

You REALLY need to use DI or DM (demineralized) water to properly blend glycols. As per the manufactures directions.

RO or distilled water is really not a good, or affordable, option for large hydronic systems. And true RO water will be very agressive to copper. Only if it is mixed down would it be right for hydronic systems.

Most important is the initial flush. Putting good water into a system full of dirt, flux, oil, and pipe thread compound is foolish.

More and more companies are offering hydronic cleaners. Utility brand now has a TSP type product on the market. Just saw it in a recent trade rag somewhere.

Rectorseal and others plumbing chemical brands have cleaners.

I like the Rhomar "all metal" friendly cleaners. It goes beyond the soap (TSP) treatment and buffers PH and other features.

With new high efficiency equipment, read their cleaning requirements and suggested products.

Label any, and all, systems with hydronic or glycol in them. Most chemicals come with labels included. It's good for you, the owner, and the next guy to know what's in the system.

The smell should be a first indicator, if you break into somebody else's system.

Beyond this get help from a water treatment expert. Bacteria and other water born "uglies" can be hard to figure out and treat.

Had enough yet?

hot rod

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Unknown

A watery grave

Hydronic fluid must be chemically tested. If I only knew then what I know now,,,

High chloride levels are apparently very common around here even in city water as I'm finding out. Salt used to melt roadways finds it's way into our drinking water supply. I do find it curious that there is no way to chemically treat water with high chloride levels. It is considered aggressive to copper, brass and stainless steel as you can see in the photos below.

Take a look at what is happening with a radiant heated house I've been called in to repair. The city water is drawn from two public wells and the level of chlorides is way above normal but, the city won't do anything about it because they claim it is still safe to drink. Extensive amounts of Rhomar Water Management's products were used here but that didn't help these actuator valves from failing within one year after being replaced. Since we now think there may have also been a stray voltage situation at work here as well, the synergetic plot thickens. The high salinity of water makes it an even better carrier of stray current. These brass manifolds are isolated with non barrier PEX yet current flow was present at both manifold locations. No ferris components are used within this closed loop system. In this case the water is unsuitable for closed loop hydronic systems. The hot air heads will love to spread this news around.

Due to an ongoing search for a permanent solution to these failures, I will be blowing out the system fluid with compressed air and trucking in different water next week as HR has often done.

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Constantin

Speaking of which...

Given that RO systems are now available in small sizes for boats, houses, etc. I wonder how long it will be before such systems will become part of the toolbag on system commissioning or maintenance in situations like these...

You wouldn't have to buy a huge unit, just one that is big enough to filter all the water in the system, let's say overnight. I imagine only the larger companies in bad water areas would find a constant enough use for it, but it could be a time and money saver. Naturally, you'd have to treat the water before using George's magic stuff...

hr

Say NO to RO

Besides being wasteful, about 20% of the water that goes into RO comes back as useable. The rest goes down the drain as waste.

RO strips so much from the water that it will be very aggressive towards easily dissolved metals, copper being the one we would be most concerned with.

RO water needs to be handles via plastic pipes and dispensors for this reason. You also need some good filters ahead of RO to prevent ther membrane from being plugged up.

Better to find a company that will rent DM machines for your fill water, or import it. You may be able to blend some RO water with the site water to get a good mix. Sounds complicated to me

This article explains a lot about RO operation. Thanks to Mark V Rowzee for the water treatment articles he has been adding to PM mag and Supply House Times as of late.

http://www.supplyht.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,5333,145752,00.html

hot rod

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S Davis

Water

hot rod,

So you test for PH and hardness, do you know if the rhomar cleaners are ok to use with pro-press fittings?
and is there really a need for a cleaner in a system with no solderd joints?

S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

hr

solderless

joints take the flux issue out of the mix, no doubt. I suspect you may still have pipe dope, assembly lube, possibly oil from threaded joints? Dirt, copper chips....

Plain water just doesn't cut these types of petro products to assure they are flushed out.

Over the years I have used TSP, automatic dish liquid, Tide, a half of dozen other hydronic cleaners on the market, you name it. For piece of mind I switched to Rhomar hydronic specfic cleaners. They go a lot further than soap on a rope

Check ph carefully if you TSP clean. You usually end up in the ph 10- 11's. Fine for steam, a tad high for some high efficiency boiler specs.

hot rod

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Ken_8

For a sealed water system,

Like HWBB or radiant?

If its safe to drink, it's fine for the closed system it will be confined to.

However, if you want to be fussy (we tend to be very fussy), we always put about one pound of TSP for every 50MBTU input into the system, circulate it for an hour or so, making sure we get over 160° - and then dump the whole mess, rinse thoroiughjoy and get all that flux, dope, thread tap chips etc. where it belongs... out of your heating system!

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Unknown

That's what I use to think.

The water that we have in this system was deemed safe to drink by the cities water department. However, since this system's inception (about 7 years ago) internal hydronic components continue breaking down causing numerous no heat calls. Since non-barrier tubing was used (in gypcrete) it is NOT by definition a "confined system." I'm wondering if oxygen could be playing into this problem of severe corrosion of stainless steel and brass components. Oxygen scavenging additives were used but, were all but diminished within one years time of my last visit. A copper fin-tube heat exchanger isolates the hydronic fluid from the Polaris heat source used for DHW and heating. Everything on my side of HX is of non-ferris materials. ceiling

I'm wondering how much longer the Polaris's condensing tank type water heater will last given the frequency of problems within the hydronic side of the system. I don't believe Polaris has a sacrificial anode rod and the recommended maintenance only includes flushing and draining of the tank. Does anybody know what material is used on the Polaris water heater's tank? Is it stainless steel or an enamel coating over steel?

Due to this corrosion, I've had to change out all of the manifolds and actuators last week with TruFlow set-ups. A licensed electrician was able to isolate the 8-10 VAC of stray voltage measured across the common side of the transformer and the remote brass manifolds by bonding the common 24V side of the transformers to an earth ground with a 6" piece of thermostat wire to one of the metal boxes screw. I'm not so sure this is a good idea. I've never seen the common side of a transformer bonded to ground. Won't this cause the transformer to be over worked and fail prematurely?

I've attached a couple more photos of the failed remote actuators and welcome any thoughts as to a permanent solution to this problem short of replacing the city water with a more suitable water source. Still looking for a 5o gallon clean barrel.

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George_10

The constant in this troubled system has been the water.

I have had several conversations with Gary about this particular system and since there is no really good way to protect the small stainless pins due to their movement which would tend to remove any film our treatment product would cover them with and the very high chloride level (90 ppm) of this fill water. We have recommended that a different fill water be used.

The problem area in this system remains in this one area and the water sure looks like the culprit. The small amount of stray voltage could also have been a contributing factor.

We have asked our PHD chemist if there is any other way out of this situation. His answer was like ours. Use different water if stainless is going to be present.

After reading extensively on stainless, I would recommend that any contractor that is using equipment made from stainless, check the fill water. A high chloride level will make the stainless very vulnerable. Stainless can withstand quite a lot, but it does not do well in a high salt or choloride environment.

Water testing should be a first step along with heat loss and design considerations. These modern hydronic systems are going to need TLC if they are going to last and provide the heating efficiency they offer.

Rhomar has been pushing for this change in the care of these home/small commercial systems. It is obvious that the new boilers, holding tanks and other components are going to force contractors into becoming more aware of the fill water they are using in these systems. Just like new cars, hot water heating systems are going to require education and training in order for them to be put into trouble free service.

S Ebels

Non-barrier?

You have to isolate the tube side from the rest of the system. This still leaves all your manifolds on the O2 enriched side but it may be able to save the boiler/waterheater and circs from destruction. Use a HX with wide waterways to avoid constant fouling of the passages.

Weezbo

its like Taco says *~/:)

testing can be done till you are an onsite chemist:) not that it is a bad job however my favorite thing is to use a water quality that is consistent and reliable. that take a group of the guess work out of it...on commercial systems i tell them that it must be tested and to find someone who will preform these tests on a regular basis....like "you can lay the new linoleum after i finish the boiler install :)deionized water may be the way to roll on ultras as a PYOA type thing...

Morse

He's got a heat exchanger.

The manifolds are what have been failing. Those pins look as if they are not made of a high grade stainless steel. You sure these valves were only in the system for one year? Looks more like 20 or 30. I think that Honeywell makes those manifolds for Wirsbo. They should be able to help you find out what they are made of and lead you to the cause. The Polaris Water heater has a stainless steel tank and is subjected to the same if not worse O2 conditions as the hydronics side. You should power flush the tank and pray that it holds. I wonder if the Mfgs. of stainless steel water heaters and indirects will warranty their product knowing the condition of the town water supply?

Morse

He's got a heat exchanger.

The manifolds are what have been failing. Those pins look as if they are not made of a high grade stainless steel. You sure these valves were only in the system for one year? Looks more like 20 or 30. I think that Honeywell makes those manifolds for Wirsbo. They should be able to help you find out what they are made of and lead you to the cause. The Polaris Water heater has a stainless steel tank and is subjected to the same if not worse O2 conditions as the hydronics side. You should power flush the tank and pray that it holds. I wonder if the Mfgs. of stainless steel water heaters and indirects will warranty their product knowing the condition of the town water supply?

Unknown

Steve,

Steve,

The tubing and entire hydronic side is isolated from any ferris components. The manifolds are on an oxygen enriched system but, separated from the (open) domestic hot water side of the Polaris condensing water heater/heat source. The HX is an Ever Hot™ copper tank type fin-coil tank unit. Not my system or design. It's an orphan that I'm now taking care of.

Why the rapid deteriorization of the ss pins?

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hr

Gary, perhaps the \"Relative Area Effect\"

has something to do with it. The Electrolyte (system Fluid) is the culpurit, in my opinion. If the only ss in the system is those small pins, and the fluid is "unfriendly" to that material the corrosion rate will be quickened, at those small pins.

As the CDA explains, an iron bolt in a large copper plate would corrode quickle. A copper bolt in a large iron plate would not see accecelerated corrosion. Copper being more nobel than the iron.


Either enlarge the pins, or determine the fix for the fill water

Corrosion in closed loop heating systems, from my latest Rhomar seminar :,) generally include
O2

PH

Galvanic

Microbiological

I'd put you stray voltage under Galvanic. If this is handled look for the other three "enablers"

I've only seen MIC once and it was an ron bacteria that would turn cast iron volutes to a soft mush. You could actually scratch through it with a pocket knife!

Be interesting to hear the final "fix"

hot rod

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Unknown

Nobility

HR,

There are other ss components in this system. The Polaris heat source being one even though it's separated and I'm not sure if the bronze Grundfoss Circs. have any ss inside or not?

What is the CDA?

I've replaced the old style Brass manifolds with a couple of TruFLOW sets. I didn't pull them apart to see if the pins on these were larger or of the same design.

I plan on bringing water over as soon as I can find a couple of 50 gallon drums. What a PITA. Water is HEAVY;-(

I'm now under the impression that voltage or "stray current" has had nothing to do with this. What the electrician did was to wire the common side of the transformer and bonded it to an earth ground. This took away the electron differential at the manifolds but will without a doubt lead to pre-mature failure of the 24 volt transformers according to my electrician. "The 24 volt side must do it's work then go to ground via the neutral side of 110VAC"

I'm more confused now than ever.

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Harold

Source of Water

I am in the position of needing water to fill my heating system (around 250 gal). My well is not currently acceptable. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to go about finding a local source of suitable water (e.g., deionized)?

hr

Even in the small city of

Springfield, Missouri, we have two Water Conditioning places that sell and supply DI water. They bottle it for supermarket shelves. Check the Yellow Pages under water conditioning.

In some areas contractors I know rent a DI or DM machine, connect it to the water source and filter right on the job. I run a few extra 5 gallon pails if you go this route.

In this day and age you might even find an online source to rent filtration equipment.

Don't buy water through the mail or UPS

Ask around, most cities that have any kind of industry generally have a need for water conditioning.

hot rod

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Harold

UPS

I know about water and UPS. I just sent 1 gallon about 70 miles - cost about $14.

Weezbo

I am a bit curious as to the analogue and digital voltage

readings on both legs of the line voltage at the entrance or first lugs on the branch service feeder......also,would the building itself have metal clad siding ? if you have a clamp on amp meter then the amp reading on the ground rod and both main hot legs...if this is on a farm or garage/service station with three phase....same deal and nuteral...some times it isnt a large mystery aye:) if the voltage is off by an increment of 3 volts 6 volts etc...then it is a pin on the transformer feeding the building ....

Weezbo

I think electricty is a wierd monkey *~/:)

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