Oxygen Barrier Pex

G Averill_2

Remember to use a lined expansion tank like a Therm-X-Trol by Amtrol, in lieu of the plain steel Extrol model. As big Ed is advising, why go through all of these steps when using the barrier product is the correct way to go? I tell my contractors that radiant heat is a premium product, that should be sold at a premium price. For that premium price the end user deserves the best we can supply.

Man with a question

Why use oxygen barrier pex?

Let's say you have all bronze pumps in a "closed" radiant system.

Why use o2 barrier pex in a slab when costs twice as much? Oxygen gets in the system through the make-up water line anyway.

The PEX itself often gets scraped on the surface where the oxygen barrier is. HePex and Aquapex are the same stuff.

This has never made good sense to me.

Big Ed

O2

> Let's say you have all bronze pumps in a "closed"

> radiant system.

>

> Why use o2 barrier pex in a

> slab when costs twice as much? Oxygen gets in

> the system through the make-up water line

> anyway.

>

> The PEX itself often gets scraped on

> the surface where the oxygen barrier is. HePex

> and Aquapex are the same stuff.

>

> This has

> never made good sense to me.



If you have a closed system with non ferous merterials. No problem.

You have to figure the cost of bronze pumps,brass fittings and non ferous heat exchanges.

Running low temperatures under 120* is not a problem. Running Non Ox for a steel panel radiator is a problem...

I myself, would not take a chance even in a low temp system, Down the road when someone get hurt , it will become code.

The incomming water is no a problem unless you have a leak.

Big Ed

O2

If you have a closed system with non ferous merterials. No problem.

You have to figure the cost of bronze pumps,brass fittings and non ferous heat exchanges.

Running low temperatures under 120*I understand it is not a problem. Running Non Ox for a steel panel radiator is a problem...

I myself, would not take a chance even in a low temp system, Down the road when someone get hurt , it will become code.And besides it stupid easy running the stuff.Save on labor and buy the right stuff

The incomming water is not a problem unless you have a leak.The small amount of O2 on fill up is no big deal.It would come out of solution and vent out....

man witha question

Why is a high temp application any different? What happens with O2 at say 17o degrees?

Unknown

Radiant is a premium product but price doesn't have to be quite as different as it always is.

If your system can handle non-barrier pipe (no ferrous components), then go ahead and use it. You only really save $$$ on jobs with a high pipe to pump ratio, but you can do it.

Or you can use a cheaper barrier PEX or PEX-AL-PEX if you like, they do exist in the price range of aquapex, and you don't have to switch the pumps to bronze models, if the tubing cost is a serious concern for a project.

As many say these days, PEX itself has pretty much become a commodity market. Maybe you need all the time-saving peripheral parts the bigger manufacturers have for contractors, and maybe you don't. Maybe it depends on the project.

That said, it's pretty rare that I've seen tubing cost itself sink a project. The .50/square foot is not usually the bulk of the system cost.

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hr

O2 barriers only slow the

O2 ingress, they don't stop it 100%. Although aluminum with a tight weld may be 100%??

The hotter the fluid the quicker the O2 will migrate through.

Keep in mind these are very low numbers we are dealing with. I suppose a low volumne system, at high temperature operation could over many years develop corrosion, from O2 ingress.

Early non barrier PB and EPDM rubber would suck O2 like crazy! This became very obvious within 3- 5 years after installation. Quicker on high temperature baseboard systems.

O2 barriers that are protected make more sense to me. EVOH on the outer most layer is prone to damage at the jobsite and from UV. There are multi layer pex products that have the barrier internal for protection. Weil had a product called Qualpex that was a multi layer for better protection.

Not all pex is created equally when you start digging deeply Regardless, stick with the barrier, someone, someday, may change those non ferrous components unknowingly. They will be in for a surprise. Rust never sleeps!

Check you fluid ocassionally and consider a hydronic system treatment to handle these small O2 issues. The conditioners will also buffer your ph and coat, and protect, your HX surfaces for years of trouble free service.

hot rod

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Weezbo

er ...there is a value to service work...making some work for

others less fortunate than yourself might be a nobel thing to do. I like bronze pumps...i even like stainless leaving the door open to chance that the designe may be changed in the future without adhering to your specs might not be a bad way to accomplish this... keeping younger guys in work by throwing them a curve might be a good thing, from time to time....cranking the temps way up might accomplish it even faster...i probably havent hit on every possibility ...maybe some one can help me out...

Mark Eatherton1

Don't be deceived...

The use of non oxygen barrier tube, along with low mass copper finned tube boilers is rampant here in Colorado, and the contractors who are doing it are screwing their customers. It doesn't happen within the warranty period, but eventually, the copper fin tubed boilers with their finned tubes rolled into a STEEL tube sheet and CAST IRON headers WILL fail. It's just starting to happen in one particular mountain community here, and the alternative fix is NOT cheap.

You have one chance to do it right. Quit focusing on one component and start looking at the job as a whole, not a hole...

There's not a right way to do things wrong, and I have just trained 50 plumbing/mechanical inspectors about the right way to do it, and you can bet that if you're one of the forementioned contractors doing business in Colorado, you WILL be found out and required to change your ways.

Eventually, after numerous people get the living crap sued out of them, the codes will be modified to outlaw the use of non barrier tubing in space heating applications. Might as well get used to it now...

ME

Unknown

Don't get me started on 02 (rant)

Oxygen in a heating system degrades systemic componants even if you think you are safe believe me you are not. Have you checked the chloride levels of the water you use? Above 80 PPM? I dare you.. Double dare you. This will be a HUGE problem in the near future as stainless steel and other componants start to come apart due to poor water quality provided by cities and towns. Even the backyard well.

All those high efficiency SS Heat Exchangers could see a rollback in warranty if the chloride levels do not fall below the Mfg defined level. Wait & see. Get you're test kit out and try it with me:-(

Oxygen introduced into a closed loop system is not a good thing no matter what preventative measures you have taken. Come with me to a job tomorrow and replace some more Stainless steel manifold actuators. This will take you most of the day and test out their expansion tanks for thin spots. You never can tell. Drain and clean out Micro bubble air resorbers with compressed air and sit for a while as I run the water treatment/cleaner at high Temps. for an hour or two. When we are done you can help me purge the whole system and then we can add the necessary amount of water conditioner after we change out the relief valves. We will have to wait for the water truck to arrive with suitable water for our hydronic system so this won't happen again. Are you sure you want to be in the radiant heating bussiness? You're friend who teaches night school won't talk about water comfort heating because it's not on the test . As soon as you get you're license, be sure to put the BIG bold letters that say> "Shlomo's Plumbing and HEATING" As long as the state says you are a plumber, why not do heating as well? People get cold in the winter and I know how to sweat pipes

By all means,,, use non barrier tube;-)

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Ted_9

[quote]Are you sure you want to be in the radiant heating bussiness? You're friend who teaches night school won't talk about water comfort heating because it's not on the test . As soon as you get you're license, be sure to put the BIG bold letters that say> "Shlomo's Plumbing and HEATING" As long as the state says you are a plumber, why not do heating as well? People get cold in the winter and I know how to sweat pipes[/quote]

So true.


PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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ScottMP

And

SO SAD !!!

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Ted_9

Just to clearify my statement. Alot of plumbers/ heating guys know what they are doing. But I noticed that the averge home owner thinks because you are a plumber, you know about heating. They dont realize that there is nothing in the plumbing code about heating. Heating professionals, such as the ones on this site, study it on our own for years.

I thought we were taking about the GB142?

Hey, G'morning Scott. Morning Gary. Gotta go to work now.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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