Why Viessmann's cost more

Ken_8

It's the inherent problems they have over there, coupled with the falling dollar vs. euro.

see:

http://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000177488.pdf

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S Milne

O.K. I'll bite

How does that effect Buderus who has a competitive boiler in the american market ??

Scott

Paul Pollets

I think...

they cost more because they flat rate the boiler equipment:)

They always cost more even when the dollar was strong. Better product, better engineering, better service= higher costs. Duh. Oops, sorry.

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Kevin__Flynn

Ken

Ken, just out of curiousity, from where does your bitterness towards Viessmann originate?

Did a Vitola fall on the family pet or what?

Based on your scenario in multiple posts in this forum, there are many German Manufacturers that you should be slandering. Why are you picking on just Viessmann?


Kevin Flynn

hr

Not exactly

the tolerance one would expect from a GAMA/IBR instructor Where's my copper hammer gone off to.

Don't worry, be happy, Ken! You have a lot of knowledge to share here, don't get mired down in the FR and German thing AGAIN.

hot rod

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Ken_8

I am not \"bitter,\"

Just amazed at the gullibility and incredibly naieve posts about how inferior all else is - to anything other than German made goods.

I saw the workers at the factory. They would have all been fired had they performed that way at any manufacturer I have seen in the states.

Your praise is completely unfounded and I felt like saying so. Many of us bit a large bullet when Vaillant left town. When the Germans leave town, they do so in a hurry.

I see no reason not to buy and support American made goods when as good or better.

That's all.

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Ken_8

I think your copper hammer

went the same way that Ben Franklin went.

South.

Way Down South.

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ALH_3

Competition

Viessmann isn't better because they're German. They're better because they build better boilers. I seriously doubt any American boiler manufacturer would tell you that the Viessmann is anything but a top-notch product. Where the American boiler manufacturers will argue is about price.

If we all buy boilers because of price then the American mannufacturers will get lazy. Oh wait, they already seem to have gotten that way. If Viessmann hadn't brought the Vitodens to America, would any of the American manufacturers been pushed to develop their own condensing equipment? (or use someone else's heat exchanger and put it in their own jacket)

If the American companies want to survive they will have to push themselves to produce better equipment, not just sit idle and sell boilers simply because they are American.

That's what Viessmann does for the market in my opinion. I would much rather see Burnham innovating instead of catching up, but I don't get to make that choice.

A business model based solely on price won't get them very far.

-Andrew

Kevin__Flynn

Ken

So the question I would ask myself is, "Am I angry that people are SAYING that the German Products are inferior, or am I more angry because I realize that in some cases it might be true".

I have no doubt that if the American Boiler Companies wanted to make better products, they could. The two problems are

(1) The US Market is about 90% warm air and 10% Hydronic. Europe is almost exactly the opposite.

(2)This means that we have 30+ boiler brands fighting over 10% of the heating market. The combined total sales of boilers per year in the US, American and otherwise, is between 300,000 & 400,000 boilers. That's an awful lot of competition and the American boiler manufacturers realize that right now the majority of the US Consumer wouldn't pay the higher premium for the better product. They might build an inferior product but their not completely stupid.

Just as a benchmark for you Ken, Viessmann alone worldwide, sells about 400,000 boilers, and Buderus I would be willing to bet, might be even more. Not bad for companies that only work 30-35 hours a week.

As far as Vaillant Ken, they had a slightly different approach to the US market than Viessmann. They wanted to sell a better product, but they wanted to sell it cheaper than all the American Manufacturers. In fact Vaillant US showed a loss for every year they were in the US. Suddenly they were bought by a larger company that had shareholders. These shareholders were no longer going to let there boilers be sold at a loss. Economics is economics whether it is US or Germany.

Now, here are a couple more questions Ken,

How many US companies build boilers with 3" or more of insulation under the jackets? It is usually just enough to prevent anyone from burning their hands.

How many US companies produce a Wet Base Gas Boiler?

How many US companies provide means of protecting their cast iron from fire side condensation and thermal shock? this is not to say that the contractor can't provide the means to do this, but most don't.

I could go on for hours pointing out the subtle and not so subtle differences but I think you probably get the idea.

Oh wait, there is one final question. I myself have recently been to ISH in Germany. Germany by the way is a country about the physical size of New Mexico with about 86 million people. That is about a third of the population of the US in about 1/50th of the land. They have no fossil fuels of their own to speak of. So the the fuel that they do use is about 4 times higher than ours. In fact just two weeks ago when I was there, I noticed that Gasoline was selling for about $6.00 US/Gal. So I would say it is very important to them to pick very fuel efficient heating systems. So here is that Final question, sorry to keep you waiting.

How many US Boiler Manufacturers displayed their Boilers at ISH in Germany? Answer=0

The Good new for you, Ken, it is apparently obvious that our fuel prices are climbing higher than ever before, so the US Boiler Companies will have to get better.


Kevin Flynn

Kevin__Flynn

Ken

So the question I would ask myself is, "Am I angry that people are SAYING that the German Products are inferior, or am I more angry because I realize that in some cases it might be true".

I have no doubt that if the American Boiler Companies wanted to make better products, they could. The two problems are

(1) The US Market is about 90% warm air and 10% Hydronic. Europe is almost exactly the opposite.

(2)This means that we have 30+ boiler brands fighting over 10% of the heating market. The combined total sales of boilers per year in the US, American and otherwise, is between 300,000 & 400,000 boilers. That's an awful lot of competition and the American boiler manufacturers realize that right now the majority of the US Consumer wouldn't pay the higher premium for the better product. They might build an inferior product but they are not completely stupid.

Just as a benchmark for you Ken, Viessmann alone worldwide, sells about 400,000 boilers, and Buderus I would be willing to bet, might be even more. Not bad for companies that only work 30-35 hours a week.

As far as Vaillant Ken, they had a slightly different approach to the US market than Viessmann. They wanted to sell a better product, but they wanted to sell it cheaper than all the American Manufacturers. In fact Vaillant US showed a loss for every year they were in the US. Suddenly they were bought by a larger company that had shareholders. These shareholders were no longer going to let there boilers be sold at a loss. Economics is economics whether it is US or Germany.

Now, here are a couple more questions Ken,

How many US companies build boilers with 3" or more of insulation under the jackets? It is usually just enough to prevent anyone from burning their hands.

How many US companies produce a Wet Base Gas Boiler?

How many US companies provide means of protecting their cast iron from fire side condensation and thermal shock? this is not to say that the contractor can't provide the means to do this, but most don't.

I could go on for hours pointing out the subtle and not so subtle differences but I think you probably get the idea.

Oh wait, there is one final question. I myself have recently been to ISH in Germany. Germany by the way is a country about the physical size of New Mexico with about 86 million people. That is about a third of the population of the US in about 1/50th of the land. They have no fossil fuels of their own to speak of. So the the fuel that they do use is about 4 times higher than ours. In fact just two weeks ago when I was there, I noticed that Gasoline was selling for about $6.00 US/Gal. So I would say it is very important to them to pick very fuel efficient heating systems. So here is that Final question, sorry to keep you waiting.

How many US Boiler Manufacturers displayed their Boilers at ISH in Germany? Answer=0

The Good new for you, Ken, it is apparently obvious that our fuel prices are climbing higher than ever before, so the US Boiler Companies will have to get better.


Kevin Flynn

B. Tice

Boilers

I think there are a fair number of US made boilers that are very good. Unfortunately, not alot of Guys buy them. Most American boilers are inferior cast iron pin designs. But Guys buy them up, why I don't know. A German fellow I knew that was in the heating business told me that Buderus was not a top boiler in Europe. More of a Goodman/Janitrol type product.Interesting. I think Viessman looks like they have a nice product for a limited market, as they are pricey.But every product has it's place.I used to be really hung up on the USA thing, but I basically use products now that I feel are good, weather they are Canada, US, or whatever.

Ken_8

Did it ever occur to you,

or your anti-American posture is not based on wonderful engineering but on desperation? The desperation that comes form a country that has no oil - and must pay a fortune to burn it - in a climate colder than ours? Did that ever enter your mind?

The quality of euro boilers is not driven by engineering per se, but need. If three times the euro paycheck goes for fuel, would not the VW beetle have been needed? Do you think the euro boiler makers wanted to engineer efficient equipment for the hell of it?

They had a captive market with huge demand. The equipment was never intended to be some engineering marvel we should worship over here. It was designed to be as efficienct as the complete absence of natural resources mandated they be!

Desperation can be a great innovator. Since we had no such problems here, we sat back and burned oil like mad and drove V-8's. Our boilers reflected our prosperity and completely different fuel costs.

Now that energy costs are rising, American boiler manufacturers wil meet that dynamic that has just arrived.

Fact is, when accounting for inflation, gas at $2.00 a gallon is less than we paid before the oil embargo!

The euros had to do something; and they did. Of course when Madison Avenue gets on it - it's all engineering - because we can!

When in reality, it was absolute desperation and financially motivated and in large part, still is.

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leo g_13

I just can't stop thinking

about Burnham. They seem to be approaching the boiler eff's in a wholly different way. The Revo 2 is, to me, an amazing experiment with what I call "backward" condensing. Their Opus was again a terrific bit of engineering, but sadly just didn't take. I feel that if and when, they figure out how to get the burner on the Rev. 2 to modulate, a lot of this type of discussion will just evaporate!

But then i am just a dinosaur, who loves servicing 30-40 year old locally made steel boilers that are still doing their job, and keeping people warm and cozy.

Again, just like our NG supplier, I think that too many times, people get hung up on boiler eff's, but to me, the secret is system eff's. Give me a good 84% boiler, and the right tekmar, lots of tube or radiation, and in 30-40 years, this system will still be in service. Something must count for longevity also.

For in the production of these vessels, energy and more material is used! So if I can put in a system that has a good chance of being around in 40 years time, and basically just a yearly servicing is required, does this not add up to "energy" savings, as opposed to having to change out a top-o-da-line boiler every 12-15 years?

Leo G

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ALH_3

Financial motivation

Everything in business is financially motivated. However, not everything in the world is financially motivated.

Where would we be if no one pushed to build a better boiler than the first one ever made? Humans have an innate desire to improve on existing things. It's not desperation, but human nature. Why don't we all still drive Model T's? They worked, but they could be improved upon.

Not to mention the fact that there is money to be made through innovation. The manufacturer who isnt moving forward is falling behind. I would much rather one of the American boiler companies be exporting their boilers to Germany. We need more of that, rather than the outsourcing that's been going on.

I don't see why we should wait until fuel prices are already extremely high before we improve our efficiency. It's just responsibility to the rest of mankind to not consume everything in sight as fast as we can. I also believe our goods are artificially cheap, built on the backs of Asian and Mexican slave labor. The federal government has a responsibility to our country to make sure that does not happen, but greed has been a strong motivator for politicians to allow it.

I do not agree with the mentality that we should waste just because we can. I don't understand why we should use products that are just good enough. That mentality has put the American manufacturer in the position of catching up on their home ground. Energy independence will make this country stronger. Waste is not patriotic.

If nothing else, I enjoy working with state of the art equipment as long as people will buy it. It's a nice part of the market to be fortunate enough to work in.

-Andrew

ALH_3

Good point

Those are very good points. Insulating homes is where we'll gain the most for the least.

-Andrew

Constantin

You make some very good points, Kevin

A company that is saddled with very expensive labor costs and high material costs cannot compete on price alone. Even the US prices for both sorts of costs are lower than in the "old" EU. Never mind the inflexibility of the workforce, etc. To maintain their top-line pricing, Viessmann has learned to differentiate themselves from other manufacturers and they must keep evolving their product line to continue to do so.

Last time I checked, the US market was at 93% hot-air, and the EU market was 99% hydronic, so your observations regarding potentially small payoffs for large investments by US boiler manufacturers are spot-on. Similarly, it is striking how US boiler manufacturers managed to fall behind their younger EU bretheren in world-wide sales, despite having 50+ more years of experience, easy access to worldwide markets, etc.

If I may, allow me to inject a small correction re: fuel prices. It is true that automobile fuel is very expensive across the EU. However, there are much smaller differences with regard to heating fuel prices, which are roughly the same. Oil-fired homes in the EU tend to have real fuel bunkers (1000+ gallon tank farms for single-family homes are not uncommon) and oil dealers offer volume discounts. In the US, the industry relies on smaller tanks and far more deliveries...

Weezbo

More Than What?

Mark Eatherton1

The reason for German fuel efficiency is not cost...

Ken, I used to be under the same impressions. While I was in Germany, touring the Buderus manufacturing facilities, I asked the engineers if their equipment was so efficient due to fuel costs, and I was told that the reason was not money driven but rather Ecological reasons. It seems that back when efficiency was mediocre, someone noticed that all of the trees in the forest were turning yellow on their tops. The govmint put their top environmental scientists on it and they found that the forest were being killed off due to air polluiton. They began emergency crisis management in an attempt to stop and reverse the damage. ThHis included basic conservation as well as dictating the use of higher efficiency equipment. The money savings is actually a side benefit. Also, the cost of energy over there is not a base commodity issue, its a TAX issue. All transportation fuels have a substantial tax connected to it to subsidize the rail systems running throughout the country. You can get ANYWHERE in Germany by train.

They look at the United States as an ENERGY HOG, and rightfully so. We are.

Just for the record, and this is not an attempt to prove you as anti American, but have you ever installed a Viessmann product? The fit and finish are so much superior to their American counterparts, there is no comparison.

Just sharing what I've been told by people in the know.

ME

Constantin

You're right, it's a system...

A house has to be looked at from all angles... One has to look at the envelope as a whole and work inwards. Besides the shell, one has to deal with insulation, air exchanges, etc. to keep the place comfortable IAQ-wise. Once the envelope is sound, the heating and cooling systems can be optimized also. Given the many retrofit options that are available to homeowners, I remain baffled why not more of them take advantage of these options.

To Leo's point of loving to service very old units, I think there is a time and a place for everything. If an old heating system is running reasonably efficiently due to updated control systems, by all means, keep that boiler going. IMO, unless a boiler is badly-made, a top-notch installation and annual service operation will keep it going pretty much indefinitely.

Some of the moving parts may wear out, etc. but a system which runs clean, where the pH of the water is right, etc. has no reason not to last for a very long time unless its being abused.

I took a very long, hard look at the Opus when it came out. On paper the unit looked fantastic, with a very heavy body, insulation, and a very high AFUE rating w/o condensing. I think I saw my heating contractor swallow hard twice when he saw what he'd have to carry into the basement if this was our choice.

However, I was less than impressed with the 90's apporach by Burnham to spin the thing out as a separate, frou-frou company instead of marketing it as the top-of-the-line Burnham, like they ought to have, IMHO. Selling stuff under a new brand-name is not only expensive, but people in the trade see right through that anyway.

The constant revisions are a necessary evil in the early stages of any product cycle, yet it also convinced me that I would probably be more of a beta tester than a homeowner. This is not to say that Burnham wouldn't have ironed the issues out - I am sure they would have - but I wasn't convinced that the Opus would take. Owning an orphaned product makes maintenance later all the more interesting. Thus, I chose the Vitola, the other last contender.