Just had our Inspection... What a Joke!

Larry_10

The plumbing inspector for our town just came to inspect our installation. As a homeowner I'm appauled at what happens here in Massachusetts. I knew that only the gas fitting part of the job required a license here, but I didn't know that the inspection wouldn't cover the rest of the installation even though there are codes in effect for the heating part as well. I'm sure this is no news to all you folks who do good work here in this state.

If I didn't open the door to the crawl space area to show the venting, the inspector was only guessing that the vent pipe leaving the Vitodens and going through a concrete wall was actually terminating outdoors. He didn't even look at how it was terminated outside and whether it met Viessmann's requirements. It's a less than perfect situation, but the *only* defense against poor and possibly dangerous work is a *highly* educated consumer.

Since the inspector didn't spend the time to really look at our setup, I do have to ask one question...

In our attic we had a gas furnace removed and replaced with a hydronic air handler. The very last thing my contractor needs to do is tidy up the gas termination in the attic. Right now it was left as a pipe sticking out from the rafters into the attic with only the shut-off from the prior furnace at the end. It seems like common sense that the pipe should be brought back to floor level and left in such a way that someone wouldn't be able to knock the unsupport pipe. I've also asked that the valve be removed and replace with a plug so a curious child couldn't easily turn it on. The contractor will do this, but should this have been something the inspector looked at (even with the very limited scope of inspection that they use here in Massachusetts)?

Firedragon_4

Keep in mind that

he's a PLUMBING inspector.

Although there are some great P&H guys out there, my experience in our beloved Commonwealth is that inspectors seem to just be real traditional plumbers with little or no heating knowledge and even less gas knowledge.

Please also keep in mind that these are highly political positions appointed by someone in town or city government, the ole 'who you know' thingy.

I'd place my faith in the P&H contractor and not worry so much about the inspection, the contractor has more to lose anyway, the inspector is protected by law, FACT!

Chuck Shaw_2

The other thing to take into account

is what was put on the permit. If the contractor did not state that he was removing a furnace from the attic, then the inspector does not know. The plumber/gasfitter is the person who must ask for something to be inspected. At this point, the inspector could also ask for another permit, therefore generating additional income for the town,and also justifing his position. Also, there is no requirement for any permit or inspection for heating. My grandmother could open a heating buisness in Massachusetts tommrow, she just could not install the fuel and the vent. Most inspectors in the Commonwealth are excellent. However, as in any trade, there may be some who are less inclined to go the extra mile.



The other thing that you may not know, is any concerns that you express to the inspector, may be addressed with your contrator privatly, by the inspector.

The inspection is a strange, but interesting process.

Bring up your concerns with the contrator, and let him and the inspector sort things out. Your contractor has to work with him on a regular basis. You as a homeowner, may never see him again.

Chuck

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Yeah, that open

gas stub is kinda' scary. Like you said, it should be capped off back under the roof joists.

Out here in the Bay Area, the inspectors really don't know hydronics; it's probably the same in other parts of the county. All they really check is the flue, combustion air, gas piping and protection of the potable water. The smart inspectors will ask me to explain the system; the new inspectors can feel threatened and file correction notices to call out hazards that don't really exist. You're lucky that you didn't get one of them.

But your inspector should have looked at the flue termination.

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jim lockard

Never,Never.

Do we ever leave an open gas valve on a job site. If for some reason we could not remove the pipe and cap it, the valve would have been plugged or capped before we went home for the day. Way to much risk. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Ted_9

There should be a cap or plug on the gas line indeed.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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Chowdahead

Inspector

> The plumbing inspector for our town just came to

> inspect our installation. As a homeowner I'm

> appauled at what happens here in Massachusetts.

> I knew that only the gas fitting part of the job

> required a license here, but I didn't know that

> the inspection wouldn't cover the rest of the

> installation even though there are codes in

> effect for the heating part as well. I'm sure

> this is no news to all you folks who do good work

> here in this state.

>

> If I didn't open the door

> to the crawl space area to show the venting, the

> inspector was only guessing that the vent pipe

> leaving the Vitodens and going through a concrete

> wall was actually terminating outdoors. He

> didn't even look at how it was terminated outside

> and whether it met Viessmann's requirements.

> It's a less than perfect situation, but the

> *only* defense against poor and possibly

> dangerous work is a *highly* educated

> consumer.

>

> Since the inspector didn't spend the

> time to really look at our setup, I do have to

> ask one question...

>

> In our attic we had a gas

> furnace removed and replaced with a hydronic air

> handler. The very last thing my contractor needs

> to do is tidy up the gas termination in the

> attic. Right now it was left as a pipe sticking

> out from the rafters into the attic with only the

> shut-off from the prior furnace at the end. It

> seems like common sense that the pipe should be

> brought back to floor level and left in such a

> way that someone wouldn't be able to knock the

> unsupport pipe. I've also asked that the valve

> be removed and replace with a plug so a curious

> child couldn't easily turn it on. The contractor

> will do this, but should this have been something

> the inspector looked at (even with the very

> limited scope of inspection that they use here in

> Massachusetts)?

Chowdahead

Inspector

Call 617 727 9952 and ask for Joe Peluso Director of State Board of Plumbers and file a complaint, the inspector in question should lose his job.
He is not doing justice to the general public or the plumber, sooner or later someone once again will lose their life. Inspectors are paid to protect the public.
File a complaint against the ****, and help someone future.

Unknown

Larry have your

contractor remove gas pipe back to that tee and plug the tee. That way no one will fall over the gas line or move it and cause a leak.

Chuck Shaws post says it all.

Mechanic

What town are you in?

S Ebels

One of my rules

If I find an open gas pipe like that, My guys know there will be 8 hours deducted from their next check. Leaving a gas pipe like that should never be done, for any length of time.

As far as inspectors go, the ones that care do a good job, the ones that just collect a paycheck, don't. It's as simple as that.

Tom_35

Inspections

I'm in Arkansas, and like Alan Forbes, our inspectors don't know a lot about radiant. We are doing a fairly large home that has a complex HVAC and radiant system. The inspector came out to inspect the HVAC portion of the job and then started looking at the radiant.

We weren't ready for the inspection, but he started making his list while he was there. Told us we would have to install pressure relief valves at each Flat Plate heat exchanger, pressure relief valves at the de-superheaters, wanted "arrows" placed on all the piping showing the direction of flow, wanted all the piping insulated, and various other things. He also said that we should have used real silver solder on the refrigeration piping going into the Flat Plate heat exchangers. I told him that we had used Stay-Brite, which is 15% silver and he said that it didn't meet code. I asked him to show me where the code called for what he wanted and he couldn't find it.

Needless to say, we are probably going to have a good time when he does the actual inspection. What's so bad is that we have cleaned up several hack jobs that made it through with no problems. The last one had the injection pump not wired in, and the Tekmar control with outdoor reset had never been wired.

Go Figure---

Tom A

bob_44

3.8.2 Cap All Outlets

(a)Each outlet, including a valve or cock outlet, shall be closed gas tight with a threaded PLUG or CAP immediately after installation and shall be left closed until the gas utilization equipment is connected thereto. When equipment is disconnected from an outlet and the outlet is not to be used immediately, it shall be closed gas tight.
From the National Fuel Gas Code. bob

jim lockard

Real Silver

Tom -you got to love it if it melts below a 1000 degrees F. Just can not be real silver. I have been using Stay Brite since 1970 without a problem. J.H. Harris Company who makes Stay-Brite will tell you that the joints are stronger then silfose with out having to burn everything up. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Tom_35

So have we--

We started using Stay Brite in the early 80's and have not had problems period. We've had jobs that were engineered jobs where the PE required that all refrigerant piping be silfossed, which then means using dry nitrogen during the brazing process.

I've seen demonstrations where the copper pipe bursts before the joint would break.

Tom A

Larry_10

Thanks to everyone. The contractor is going to take care of that gas piping tomorrow.

Overall, I think the contractor ended up doing a good job, but not without some pushing from me. I certainly would have liked to see a lot more attention to detail without my having to bring up the issues.

The guy came with good references and a look at prior jobs looked very good. He was also recommended by the local Viessmann rep.

gasfolk

Would anyone vote to

cap the riser in the basement rather than bury a time-bomb running through to the attic? gf

Boiler Guy

Interesting....

"Stay-Brite joints are stronger then silfose"

I had this discussion with one of the local college instructors. He teaches the opposite.

Question: If using copper on condensate lines - which is better 5% silfoss, 15% silfoss or Staybrite?

I value the opinions of all reponders. THis might be a good subject for a new thread.

Larry_10

First off - it's been plugged as recommended - done.

I feel much better now.

I'm starting the process of redoing my second floor laundry room which currently doesn't have a gas line. The location of the services in the laundry room and the direction of the joists in the attic line up perfectly with the termination of the gas line in the attic. If I open up the attic floor along this joist bay, is it acceptable for a plumber to run the gas line from the current location to the laundry room by traversing the length of the joist bay and then go down to the laundry room?

jim lockard

Stay -Brite

Ok Boiler Guy --When you heat a metal (Or anything) you change the properties of the metal. Heating copper to a dull red for hi temperature brazes to flow causes the copper to soften or anneal. Stay-Brite flows around 500F, the copper keeps its properties. Stay-Brite joints are quoted good up to 10,000 PSI. ??? MHO. Question why would I use silver on condensate lines? J.Lockard

Tom_35

Boiler Guy,

I didn't mean to sound like the Stay Brite joint would be stronger than Silfos---just that a joint that was soldered correctly would be stronger than the copper pipe itself.

We do mostly HVAC work, and as such, don't use any of the solder that plumbers use that wipes so good and makes the joint really look good. Our joints are either by Stay Brite, 15% silfos, or silver solder if we are sweating copper to steel.

We use the ProPress for most of our radiant connections and would be thrilled if the manufacturers would come up with a ProPress fitting for refrigerant piping.

Tom A

Weezbo

in no way shape fashion or form is a valve to be left any where

in your system without a nipple and cap,or plug. and if it isnt in plain sight i would rather see it removed entirely...may your home stay on terra firma..

jim lockard

HVAC

Propress for HVAC work that would be great.

Weezbo

would like to suggest that our licenses are considered AHJ

The inspector of a muni or whatever have been paid by us as a form of Quality control....This is to suggest that the contractor and inspector are supposed to work with one another...Let me hi jack the thread for a momment....Do any of you feel you could do any better of a job than the inspector ? Then ,that being the case perhaps we should show up in various city council meetings and the like and openly disscus the need for something along a experiential upgrade of our liscenses indicating that....just a thought.

jim lockard_2

inspectors

I like the way you think Weezie and agree that contractors and inspectors should work together for the greater good. J.Lockard

ed wallace

inspections in ma.

in ma. plumbing inspectors inspect gas boiler installs they are only interested in gas connections oil heat installs are done by fire dept this will change as of either april 1st or may 1st really dont know if any thing will change

Weezbo

only 15 20 years ago Alaska was somewhat like that...

the fuel oil piping and tank was mostly the Fire dept.s bally wick...really it has some degree of sence to it as locating an underground fuel oil tank in a fire is not the time to be doing so.. nor are.gas lines , propane tanks,and welding tanks....i belive the set backs on tanks are to basically protect the neighbours homes in the event of a fire...