Combustion Analyzers

Ken_8

We own a PCA 25, two Fyrite Pro's and one CA-300. All are problematic and perform poorly.

The PCA-25 was serviced on 1/3/05 to the tune of $273. and now reads "error" on start up. It was used maybe 15 times since repaired and is now suspect.

One of two Fyrite Pro's reads Error as well and the PPM reads are suspect. Fixed in 10/8/04 to the tune of $359.25. It may have done 20 combustion tests since being in their service department for entirely too long.

The CA-300 reads "CO error" and saw half a dozen combustion tests. The repair cost and date were recent, but I cannot find the invoice to write specifics. I recall close to $600. being the repair cost.

This is totally unacceptable, costing me a fortune in having to go back accross the state with an assumed to be functional analyzer - and redo burner setups with equipment that is suspect, poorly designed and about as state of the art as bacon and eggs.

We have two old "salt shakers" (dumbell type Fyrites) I will rebuild before I'll spend another dime on this crap.

Anybody have a solution to these products that fail and suggest something that will work for more than six months without a $300. service charge?

I need to have combustion analyzers that work for 100 or more tests, and/or over 12 months without failures.

Bacharach is NOT that company!

Help!



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Jim Davis_3

Bacharach

Having used,sold, and serviced all 3 of these units since they came out and still using them, your problems are excessive compared to the others that have them. The only thing that usually goes bad on these units is the O2 sensor, but it normally last 2 years regardless of use. CO sensor tend to last 4 years or more. All sensors have a 1 year warranty so you shouldn't have to pay for more than one a year and that is extreme. O2 sensors are field replaceable and the unit never has to go back to the factory for them. CO on all these I have found to stay fairly accurate for 2 years most of the time. Moisture is the biggest problem on all meter, especially the PCA. Would not recommend it for commercial work. I have used the CA-300 in the rain and it still worked fine. You must make sure your never leave the probes connected when unit are stored. The water traps need to be left open in the case when not in use. I always blow out the hose assembly when finished to minimize moisture. I keep my units in my car all winter long and have never really had cold weather hurt them. Just makes batteries weak. I am sure Rudy will respond similiarly. When my customers tell me something is wrong with their instruments I walk them through several procedures to verify this and determine if they can make their own repairs. I have sold Bacharach for 27 years and other than some O2 sensor problems in the 80's they have been the most dependable units I have ever seen..

Biged

Bacharach

On oil fired equipments I do a smoke test first, after getting a #1 smoke then I put my probe in.The only time I had problem with mine is before I started doing the afore mentioned.

Firedragon_4

A #1 smoke?

Weezbo

I think he ment \"Trace\" *~/:)

Firedragon_4

gawd,

all of the big guys now want TRUE ZERO. Beckett, Carlin and Riello, FACT!

Biged

Bacharach

I ment before sticking the probe in so the sensor does not get messed up. Then ofcourse adjust to #1

oil-2-4-6-gas

what are you adjusting to a #1?? i don't even adjust large commercial to #1 its not acceptable

Unknown

I think some folks need

some training. Oh well as long as the piping looks nice what does it really matter.

Bill_14

What???

Do you have anything positive to say Ken?

Boiler Guy

No luck with

Bacharach service in Canada. Turn around time has been 3-6 weeks and longer. When they work, I have found them to be excellent. It becomes costly to purchase 2 units just to compensate for serviceability. We've gone to Testo for commercial and UEI for residential and been very happy so far.

Ken_8

I have tons of positive things to say!

Just not about Bacharach test equipment...

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Ken_8

Turnaround time

is poor here in NJ. Even the factory suggests finding a new service.

Amazing.

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Ted Robinson

Electronic combustion analyzers

Thanks for this message thread. I have been watching analyzers on ebay and now I think I am glad I never saw a price I liked. I presume any unit for sale there can be assumed to come with a large repair bill, to follow. For the little I would use it, a big ticket item isn't justified.

Weezbo

i am sure that ones test equipment wil last longer by getting

a zero smoke before using any insturments..however like you say it is best to test when you get there ...however if it pulls a #7 smoke ..you can be assured something cheaper than your instruments need to be employed:)First..... ithink that a #1 smoke or trace is alot more preferable place to start than something burning poorly yet who am i ...i have no real vested interest in selling fyrite or co attachments or test equipment personnaly the paper to take a smoke test from the gate is fairly inexpensive way to check repair costs on your more expensive test equipment..i would honestly say that it is somewhat like testing the waters...if a shark come up and ripps your leg off ...perhaps that is not the day to consider breaking out the water wings mask and snorkel:))

Ken_8

Ted,

There is a classic Catch-22 detail that needs to be better understood.

First, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize the number one analyzer killer would be smoke. Almost any visible smoke or even a # 2 or 3 Ringlemann would take a huge bite out of any analyzer's sensor life. The free carbon jams up the filters and poisons the delicate sensors in short order.

This is why dialing in the smoke first with an unattached to the CA (combustion analyzer) is crucial. The quintesessential "basketball pump" style is the first order of adjustment.

The real quagmire develops however when smoke is between # 1, trace, and zero - and any of the remaining factors is way out of kilter. Excessive CO will poison a sensor and shorten its life in no time. The very combustion byproduct that is perhaps most critical to the analysis process is the same one that will destroy the sensor and render the CA useless.

This is a major design flaw IMHO!

Water is an always present byproduct of any hydrocarbon combustion process. Guess what poisons a CA's sensors most frequently? Water!

How anyone can tell me that they make a great product that is "poisoned" by the two most significant elements of the very gas they are designed to test - absolutely boggles my mind.

I am resigned to the fact that technology does not allow water or CO to be present without some minimal "damage" or "wear" to take place with the sensors involved. However my experience with Bacharach equipment suggests the equipment is poorly designed for the very task it is sold to perform and I am unwilling to continue to pay for repairs and calibrations - or be a full time nurse-maid of equipment designed for labs - not vans and basements.





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Firedragon_4

Just a suggestion!

Start by first setting the burner up with an ohmmeter, ala Lanthier Scale for True Zero Smoke. That's the point where there is no change in the light variance on the eye.

Funny thing is my best success is again with old technology, the veritable king of meters, the Simpson 260.

Or, you can set it up on the system that was established first here in MA in a manual called 'Conservation' by the old BHHC and then populated throughout all of Oildom by RWBeckett in their 'Serviceman's Guide'.

It's called the 'knee method' and although it's a bit time consuming nothing I've found works better if you want to see ANY burner, oil or gas, work right for a long time.

The need for speed is what has made electronics the darling of many, but I always thought that getting it right was more important????

Ken, I'll never part with my wet-kit, when all the electronics are in the shop, it keeps on going like that infamous old bunny. Another reason why my old bulb type Monoxor is still around too.

One thing I do love to the nuts though is that new smoke tester from Testo, gotta love the new stuff.

Speaking of bunnies, Hoppy Holiday!

BTW, all of this is covered in my book 'COMBUSTION' found here: www.FiredragonEnt.com and the Beckett book is a freebie at http://www.beckettcorp.com

I cover a lot of this in my seminars for Carlin and we'll be in VA and MD in 3 weeks, you can find out more about that here: http://www.carlincombustion.com/trainingprogram/factoryschools.html

I think that will about do it for shameless plugs, hehehehe!

BTW, Dan's right, the dead men did know most of it and some ain't dead yet.

Ken_8

Giving credit where due...

Bacharach responded immediately to my concerns. They both wrote and called. After hours I might add! How I wish any other vendor would be so responsive to a complaint.

The issue however is not customer service or responses. It is the fundamantal nature of the equipment. The best service in the world is only as good as the product it embraces.

I have nothing but praise for Bacharach's responses. Yet I have nothing but distain for the products themselves.

One of life's ironies I suppose...

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Firedragon_4

All of those concerned

do their damnest and that is a big part of it, FACT!

This was posted at www.oiltechtalk.com, very interesting!!!

http://www.carlscalibration.com/

Sometimes the free enterprise system does work!

Glen

don't blame Bacharach

Being north of the border as well - I have shipped my Bacharach equipment to the east coast and the west coast for calibration. Turnaround time is directly related to what you want to pay for shipping expenses. Both times the Bacharach tech had it on his bench when promised and back out to me. These days we use a KM Quintox for all heavy com and industrial gas - and the PCA 25 is now our light oil workhouse. It likes frequent filter changes, pre testing for smoke (read Firedragons book on oil combustion for up to date enlightenment) drain and clean the hose often and other bits of maintenance like fresh batteries every 4 - 6 hours. I would buy another PCA in a flash - that said - it is my observation that this part of our industry has advanced so quickly that every manufacturer needs to examined and field tested before buying. And when in doubt - drag out the egg timer and pump away.

Biged

Bacharach

I do admit I need training, I have called Bacharach a number of times and left messages but nobody returned my call, anyways I guess in my last two post I did not make myself clear so here goes again. before I adjust any burner to a zero smoke I always find #1 first, (that's what I was suggesting that Ken do so his sensor would not get messed up, not that he should leave the burner at a #1)I guess when your typing skills are no that great and you try to say as few words as possible the wrong idea gets transmitted along with typo's.

Weezbo

one more salient word...Extreme cold is not too good for....

Any,i do mean ANY didgitaltest equipment....i have lost my Hioki ,flukes,and a group of other electronic tools by leaving them in the cold vehicle over night...Batteries or some equipment is ruined the first time they spend the night in the cold ,bring them in....temp gauges are also kinda feeling adverse conditions i have one some where around here that pun itself around in the cold ) i tested it in a stack against a new one it is accurate buh i gotta say it looks some what dubious ...if i stuff it in the stack first thing, it spins itself around to real other wise its reading the ambient air up around 1000F )i should throw it away buh it has been with me for too long...so one thing that i do first thing Biged is to take a stack temp...good thing i have long since bought a new one one day this poor old thing may give up the ghost

Firedragon_4

Thanks for the plug Glen,

and check out the deal on the bulletin board!

Firedragon_4

Aha, much better BigEd and

why don't you join Tim McElwain and I in RI next month?

Two combustion teachers for the price of one???

Rudy

Hi Biged

If you call the 800 number and ask application ?'s you probably won't hear back - that's not what they do at the plant.

If appliction questions (or instrument concerns...) come up, call myself or any one of the other field support guys listed on the bacharach-training.com website. We will get back to you!!

Glen

plug not required -

when the material backs up its promises. Cheers from the Canadian rockies.

Weezbo

Today we set a riello 20 , two weil mclain ,and a burnham

with a riello F-5. the weil mclains had 4 gallon an hour nozzels, the riello the same ,the riello 20 was a little dusty and the wayne burners well, not as clean we were also going to lash up the triangle tube (F-3) and do the test on it buh the young guys run off at 4:30....and didnt finish plumbing it in...when the Renai rep came up he said "you can take one of these apart with a screwdriver...little did he realize that he shouldnt have chirped that up so loud around me ) off comes the cover then the plates ....we put it back together he makes it go hurray alls great :)i would like to mention the young guys also they have 9 more ultras to lash up and are doing a great job...i intend to get some pictures when i am having some time in the next month that i can present some pics of their contribution to the radiant world their ultra i just checked out the other day was crusing at 78 :)i noticed some black stuff floating in thier condensate line...they used deionized water etc..i wonder if its just sheet rock sawdust and the like...oh well, ....I would say that Tim's and Firedragons class would be a dollar well spent ....man i been buzy today ...