Failed Gylcol pumps in Rehabed Psych. Center Hosp.

Jon_2

I have just about seen everything in the years I have worked at this Psych Center in northern NY., but the reasoning on this one really gets me. We have just gone through a complete rehap of this building. Started at 11.5 million and is at 56 million and still going up. All work done by outside contractors and overseen by brainless DASNY. There are 19 air handlers, with hot water coils and chilled water coils. Chilled water system is drained during winter months. Heating water to the air handers is supplied by two converters, at the air handlers there is a plate heat exchangers with the hot water and automotive antifreeze mixture on the other side. Asked why automotive antfreeze was used instead of the proper gylcol that is normally used in building systems and was told it was OK and to keep my nose out of it. Here is the kicker, all 19 B&G 60 Series pumps have been rebuild at least twice and some 4&5 times. The strainers in front of them have been cleaned each time and they were full of sand and crap that was in the piping each time. Now the commissioning company says the B&G pumps are no good in gylcol use and are buying 19 Gunfos SS pumps to replace them and of course the brain dead admin. people concur. The contractor never flushed the piping before start-up, and the powers to be are going fix the problem by just replacing the pumps. Our 75 HP main pumps really don't sound very healthy either. You can hear them a mile away. And by the way all of the perimeter pumps (another 12 B&G's) are being replace with SS Gunfos all so. And in the change-out they will be relocated so the noise will not bother the occupants of the offices. New York State should be proud of this building. The best part is that no one is being taked to task for the substandard work. I haven't started to tell about the rest of the problems.

hr

That \"sand and crap\"

you spoke of, is probably the silicates settling out of the automotive EG anti freeze. This is the main reason automotive glycols cannot, and should not, be used in hydronic application.

I'd bet any glycol manufacture would sent you (them) a letter to this regard.

It's not uncommon, however, to see EG "HYDRONIC" glycols used in large capacity systems like that. EG is a better heat transfer fluid, generally less expensive, and safe if there is no potable connection without double walled protection.

EG has two carbons, where PG has 3. EG biodegrades in the enviroment quicker.

With only 2 carbons, (EG) the human, or canine, body metabolizes the fluid quicker which is why the toxicity index is higher for EG. That's what the TLV number is on the MSD sheets is all about, I believe. I just learned that tidbit, from a former Dow transfer fluid engineer, recently.

hot rod

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Weezbo

Once you put automotive glycol in a system....

theres a bit more to getting the stuff out than draining a few pumps and flushing it...i would recommend flushing the system, before adding the new pumps...if you happen to be here when a guy, who it is his business to put things right in that regards stops in, you will definitely benifit by getting a quote from his company on what chemicals need to be used ...I think the guy sells Rohmar or thats his name or maybe thats the name of his business whatever while i have never used his products he sounds to me like a friend of mine who is really really into chemical treatment...

Jon_2

Failed Gylcol pumps in Rehabed Psych. Center Hosp.

Hot Rod, the point is the piping was never flushed period. Sand and debris found in the strainers was from the construction site. Instead of flushing sustem and insuring the system is clean to start they are changing out all the pumps. The design and installation of the heating/cooling piping is unreal. The design company has never worked on a 2.5 million sq. ft. building and it shows. The piping contracter went by the prints and had no supervision, for I watched them weld up piping with a 1/2" of sand and debris in it. They could care less....

Weezbo

Jon, i might even suggest redoing the return at the boiler..

unless you can open it with a straight thru vlave an dig the s.h. out..

George_10

We would be happy to help in any way possible.

I have dealt with state purchases in California and this sounds like another problem waiting to happen. I saw no mention of cleaning and treating this system before it is put into service.

Aside from the glycol issue, there is also the chemical treatment program to maintain this system. If this is not done right, there will more waste of money and that is a shame as this can be prevented by doing it right the first time.

This sounds like the Big Dig project in Boston. One fiasco after another with no one watching the bottom line. With this type of oversite, I wonder if the Hoover Dam would have been built.

This senario is funny, except for the waste of NY tax dollars. In the real world, heads would role and the company's leadership would be changed.

Only in America.

Weezbo

*~/:) This is the dude .:)

he says right way.you cant lose listening to him. :)oh by the way you pull the impellers you see ina Hurry whats what! oh one 20 HP s=impeller should convine even the brightest in the bunch ) sorry... i say thing's different.

S Ebels

You should recommend

To the thickheaded administration in charge to get it in writing that the Grunt's will last a specified amount of time. The project engineer either doesn't have a clue, or else is oblivious to the fact that sand is bad for pumps. You probably have some jobsite contamination issues but Hot Rod's point is worth looking into also.

Jon_2

you can't recommend anything to them

The Commissioning Company has taken over the site, and they brought in another mechanical contractor. They flushed out the water side of the heating & cooling system with a 3/4" garden hose. The hot water and chilled water mains are 12" pipe, no stainers were pulled and cleaned during or after this so called flushing. Even the 6 75 HP pumps have a grinding noise to them. I forgot to mention the original contractor ran the system for 18 months before this petty attempt on cleaning out the system, and I know they never flushed the system originally. The gylcol side has never been flushed period....and the commissioning company that wants the Gunfloss pumps because the B&G Series 60 will not hold up to glycol (so they say). Here is an example of just how smart the 2 idiots that are the commissioning agents here, they wanted the seven walk-in units with outside condensing units to hold a 50 micron vacumm for 6 hours in sub-zero weather. Note: there is over a 100 ft of suction and liquid line tubing on each unit. An impossible task even in 80 degree weather with the portable vacumm punps we use today. They have no concept of reality and it shows. God Bless the low bidders. One of these days New York State may see the light, but I doubt it. Most of the NYS inspectors on these building projects are either political hacks or are so outdated in their knowledge they are worthless. One inspector told me proudly he had 30 years experience as an inspector on state jobs. I said "Yes, I believe you, one years experience, 30 times......." What I can't understand is the millions of tax payer dollars being wasted and no-one cares or back charges the original contractor or design co. for thier faulty work.

S Ebels

It's frustrating

> The Commissioning Company has taken over the

> site, and they brought in another mechanical

> contractor. They flushed out the water side of

> the heating & cooling system with a 3/4" garden

> hose. The hot water and chilled water mains are

> 12" pipe, no stainers were pulled and cleaned

> during or after this so called flushing. Even

> the 6 75 HP pumps have a grinding noise to them.

> I forgot to mention the original contractor ran

> the system for 18 months before this petty

> attempt on cleaning out the system, and I know

> they never flushed the system originally. The

> gylcol side has never been flushed period....and

> the commissioning company that wants the Gunfloss

> pumps because the B&G Series 60 will not hold up

> to glycol (so they say). Here is an example of

> just how smart the 2 idiots that are the

> commissioning agents here, they wanted the seven

> walk-in units with outside condensing units to

> hold a 50 micron vacumm for 6 hours in sub-zero

> weather. Note: there is over a 100 ft of suction

> and liquid line tubing on each unit. An

> impossible task even in 80 degree weather with

> the portable vacumm punps we use today. They

> have no concept of reality and it shows. God

> Bless the low bidders. One of these days New

> York State may see the light, but I doubt it.

> Most of the NYS inspectors on these building

> projects are either political hacks or are so

> outdated in their knowledge they are worthless.

> One inspector told me proudly he had 30 years

> experience as an inspector on state jobs. I said

> "Yes, I believe you, one years experience, 30

> times......." What I can't understand is the

> millions of tax payer dollars being wasted and

> no-one cares or back charges the original

> contractor or design co. for thier faulty work.

S Ebels

It's frustrating

When the "powers that be" won't listen to someone who actually has the right answer because you don't have a degree or some official document that says you know what you are about.

I had the same thing in a school. They had problems with zones not heating well, zones not heating at all, howling and screching noises coming from the mechanical room etc. The building had been remodeled in 1987 and a virtual parade of big name mechanical contractors and engineers had been through the boiler room with all sorts of changes in pump sizes and controls etc. One day while changing an intermediate bearing on an ancient LD series B&G the superintendent poked his head in the room and commented that the noise from the boiler room was so loud the day before (very cold, all circs running) he had actually gone outside to see where the helicopter was landing. I got a pretty good chuckle out of that and told him if he could dredge up about $24,000 I could make the building heat and the noise go away.

Long story short, their gas bill went down about 8%, the building heats better than it ever has and everything is quiet. This is after they spent over $100K on engineers from 1988 to 2001. Go figure......

Let 'em rot and leave 'em your card. Tell them to call you when they want it fixed right. They will.

Jon_2

Frustrating

The commissioning co. has spent over $5 million so far to no avail. Building rehab cost over $59 million and still unable to occupy..

Weezbo

I think Ebels thought is on the mark ...

this is worth a re read...