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Deutch Chinook

Mark Eatherton1
Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
Here's one we're working on. This is our first, but certainly not our last Buderus GB condensing boiler application for snowmelt. What a PERFECT application for a high efficiency product. Kudos to Justin and Dale for their install work.

ME

Comments

  • bob_44
    bob_44 Member Posts: 112
    PIG

    Mark, How much pressure do you leave on that pig? How many btu boiler is that? bob
  • Dan Foley
    Dan Foley Member Posts: 1,247
    Glycol

    Nice job, mark. Can you run glycol directly through the GB? If so, what are you using? See you in a few weeks.

    -DF

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • dconnors
    dconnors Member Posts: 215
    nice job, one question....

    Where is the drip tee on the vent? Perfdect application. i would assume you are using Cryotek AL, No Burst AL or Fernox?
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    Where..

    would you suggest I put the drip tee? The vent rises up less than 1 foot and goes through the outside wall to a Munchkin style vent termination. We read the instruction manual, but with the vent going vertical first then through the wall, a drip tee seemed moot. The branch would have been horizontal. There will be NO condensing within the venting system.

    Yes, Aluminum compatible glycnoids.

    ME
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    PIG PRESSURE

    Bob, We pressurize the reservoir pig to as high a pressure as we can get out of the jet pump used for inducing glycol. I also have a hand force pump that I can take it to the threshold of the tanks. Typically, with the electric pump, its around 50 PSI.

    ME
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    Hi Dan.

    Yes on the glycol. We'll be using a 40% solution of glycol, aluminum compatable. and yes, lookin gforward to seeing you in a few weeks.

    ME
  • dconnors
    dconnors Member Posts: 215
    Vent condensation....

    Normally occurs at temps less than 135 degrees
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Pretty snazzy *~/:)

    i like the sheet metal document holder :) why the heck dont i have ona those on every job? :)
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    So then...

    what would you recommend we do? Do we HAVE to run some horizontal piping to accomodate the drip tee that won't really be seeing much condensation?

    ME

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • dconnors
    dconnors Member Posts: 215
    i would recommend .....

    Run a small piece horizontally to accomodate the drip T then go through the wall.
    thanks,
    Dave
  • New condensate drip tees

    The Heat Fab ones I use have a "cup" inside the tee that allows vertical OR horizontal mounting, and good draining.

    If the tee is required, I don't see a way to avoid using one.

    Noel
  • Robert O'Connor_3
    Robert O'Connor_3 Member Posts: 272


    Nice work Mark. Couple of questions; are your intake & exhaust terminated side by side? On the GB you are required to terminate the exhaust 12" directly above intake, and never side by side. Also, how come the air scoop/feeder/exp tank is on the supply loop? Buderus specs show it on the return. How many gpm's are you pushing thru the GB?
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    Vent terminus photo

    attached.

    ME
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    Hello Ray...

    Yes, they are side by side. The installation instructions I read on their web site do not address the 12 separation. In fact, their concentric terminus has them on the same plane. Guess that's another area that will get refined and redefined in V2.0 of the installation manual.

    The system is set up primary/secondary. The boiler is a secondary, with its pump pumping away from the primary, but towards the boiler. The primary is where the PONPC is located. The installation instructions I got from their web site don't even show the location of the expansion tank or the air separator. I did it as I would usually do it, in a manner that has taken the test of time and passed it.

    As for flow through the GB, it's based on whatever the manufacturer wanted to see because they supplied the circulator on that circuit.

    The primary circulator is based on a 30 degree delta T delivery 125 btu/sq ft/hr to the slabs.

    I was just told today that the HO has decided to add additional load to the system. I explained to the GC that this would have to be a non critical load, because of limited capacity. He agreed, so the new area will be on a twist timer, but will not run if the tekmar is in control.

    This installation was originaly slated to be a Viessmann Vitodens, and I guess that in the future, with the limitations that Buderus is placing on me for the requirement of a drip tee where I'm going immediately through the wall, I will have to stick with the big V. Just wanted to try the big little white Blue on a snowmelt to see how it works. Considering the penalty I'm having to pay for the special glycol requirements, I iwll have to weigh my decision heavily on the next install. I didn't think that 1 foot of pipe would generate enough condensation to warrant having to do a sideways offset to accomodate their tee.

    I guess they have their rules, and if I show a picture of something contrary to those rules, it's their job to point the discrepency out so that someone who doesn't bother to read the installation instructions and doesn't understand the workings of a condensing appliance doesn't do an improper install based on what they saw on the internet, and then say "But I saw So and so doing it this way on the Wall..."

    I guess, based on what a person can see in the posted photographs, that it would be possible that I was running a LONG ways away after I penetrated the garage wall, but in reality, it goes thru the outside wall and terminates. If that WERE the case, I would have had the condensate drain on the horizontal.

    Kind of reminds me of my shoulder surgery. They did more damage opening me up and putting in the scope than there was damage to be repaired in the first place...

    Seems kinda silly to me, but I'm sure the engineers back at the factory have a reason, but probably didn't ever think anyone would bother to run a vent that was less than 1 foot long.

    Maybe that will also be included in V2.0 of the installation instructions:-)

    Hope that answers your questions.

    ME
  • Robert O'Connor_3
    Robert O'Connor_3 Member Posts: 272


    I'm not really even sure why the 12" rule is enforced when doing sidewall venting, because like you said Mark, the concentric vent fitting has them on the same plane. All I know is that in that drawing from buderus (again, not trying to throw stones here, just kinda curious) it shows the fresh air/exhaust terminated above and below eachother w/ 12" min seperation (page 14 of the app. manual) In regards to my GPM question, the secondary pump cannot exceed 11 gpm on the 15 or 30, model 45 is max of 15gpm and model 60 is a max gpm rate of 20 gpm. The instructions kinda need work I'm with you there. tough to read, and very vauge!
  • dconnors
    dconnors Member Posts: 215
    let me try to clrify these issues

    1. As far as GPM. We have selected the appropriate circ for the boiler. The gpm of the system is not a concern as far as the function of the boiler. That gpm is a design to carry the load you need in the system. It only affects the supply/ return temps. 2. Physics say that it is impossible to condense all the water vapor in the exhaust within the boiler. The vent will always condense under a given temp (135). This is why we want the drip T to avoid ice build up or icicles on the outside of the building. We have done this for over 20 years and know what works and what can cause issues.
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    Thanks Dave

    I guess my mind is still clouded by the fact that your boiler is the only condensing boiler I've installed that requires a seperate drip on the vent. If installed properly, little to none of the condensate is going to end up rolling out to the vent any way because the vent is supposed to be installed with pitch back to the appliance. The tee being in place is NOT going to suck the condensation out of the pasing flue gas and dry out the gasses as is implied.

    It actualy appears that the intent is to keep the vents condensation from going through the boiler, correct? And if so, what are the engineers worried about? All the internal components are equipped to handle the pH that they will see, correct?

    I'd think they WANT to see that condensation rolling through the combustion chamber to keep the HXer clean

    If this has to do with the "possible migration" of chlorides out of the PVC venting system into the combustion zone, then I totally agree with your companies assertion. It was mentioned to me by the Viessmann rep that that is the reason they don't allow the use of PVC venting. Could be baloney, but maybe not...

    BTW, My mom used to HATE me as a child because I asked too many questions...:o)

    Inquiring minds NEED to know.

    Thanks for participating in this discussion.

    ME
  • dconnors
    dconnors Member Posts: 215
    Havent heard anything about chlorides.......

    The T just directs the condensate that will form in the exhaust to drain without having to route it through the boiler. Dont really want to beat a dead horse here. Actually we have no test results for the termination that you did choose but thats another issue for another day. And by the way, my mom said the same about me. :-)
  • Darin Cook_3
    Darin Cook_3 Member Posts: 389
    ME


    Steve Grady from Buderus who did a factory start up for us said it is okay not to use the drip tee when you are rising up out of the boiler putting a 90' bend on and going directly out through the side wall. In our case it was about 18" thereabouts. I have piped one GB identical to the factory drawings and one similiar to your install. No problems either way and it works great. Be aware of your PONPC and pipe accordingly. Do set the boiler pump speed by checking the delta T across it and setting accordingly. Hope this helps.









    Darin
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