How to sell against electric radiant mats ?

ScottMP

I have a job that is all hot air. Big house and they are putting on a sunroom addition. They would like to have radiant.

The tile man has told them he will put down electric radiant mats and let the electrican hook it up. I said " Thats great, no heat loss, no worrys, no design ? ".

My only option here ( I belive ) is a small electric HWH heater with climate panels. Alot more up front but if I can sell on a better system it would help.

Not a big enough addition ( 16 x 14 ) to warrant a boiler and the hot air units are brand new, so an upgrade to Hydro air is out.

Would the electric cost of running a small 6 gallon heater be lower than the mat ?

I no doubt would need supplemental which I would design as a panel at the same temp as the floor.

Thanks

Scott

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Weezbo

Yo Scott...

is easy to burn KW when the price is right....the original costs are always going to sound "Thats a great price" to the unwary.... i have to think that in some instances the up front costs are so much lower the purchasers 'think oh boy thats the deal!'....one thing that i try to structure into my work is up grades...on the well what if you do want a boiler in the future?... or what if you think that a KW is getting a little too expensive and due to the changes in the hydronic heating product market.....a system that a homeowner has in place make it easier to have some control over creative ceos making and managing their own "Crisis" to milk the American puplic out of thier dollars....even after the S.O.B.s were caught did any of us ever hear how the consumers ever saw a dime they were bamboozled out of ?....:) a KW is all the same..near as i can determine.....

Jeff Lawrence_24

this may get you into hot water.....

Scott,

Where's the water heater for the house? Can you use it as a heat source by installing a heat exchanger? That's the way I do it down here almost all the time. It may cost a bit more than the small electric WH, but it's something to look at.

Jeff



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ScottMP

Jeff

They have a commercial grade ( A.O. Smith I think ) gas hot water heater.

So a flate plate off that ??

Hhmmmm

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Jeff Lawrence_24

Possible problem

Scott,

The only possible problem I see (and I can't see the job from here) is access from the WH to the sunroom.

The only job I have done down here without a HX off the water heater is one that had no gas in the house except for the gas cook top. They used Seisco instantaneous water heaters for the rest of the house.

Something to think about.

Jeff


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hr

First determine the load

and see IF the current WH has enough capacity to add a FP HX. Also see how close the radiant floor gets to the load. If it is way off and needs a lot of supplemental, maybe radiant is not the best choice?

Sunrooms are the greatest radiant challange, in my opinion. A quick low mass system or maybe even panel radiators are a better match. The room, and it's intended use, will help steer you to the best match of heat emitters.

My biggest fear of electric is a break in the cable somewhere. Hard to find and repair, if not impossible! At least hydronics is more "fixable, I feel.

Operating cost for electric mat and hydronics should be close. The hydronics will cost you the circ pump electricity, that is not in the mat resistence "operating cost".

There are a handful of local tilesetters that refuse to tile over electric radiant due to failures in earlier versions. Maybe this has been engineered out of the current products? Maybe not. I've never had a tilesetter refuse to tile over hydronic!

With electric mat or cable you depend on the tilesetter skill and care, a lot, to assure system dependability. Unless YOU are the tile guy too

I believe Flat Plate, as well as Danfoss and AO Smith offer prepackaged water heater heat exchanger packages, if you chose the DHW tank route. Probably the least efficient method (energy consumption)considering the efficiency of a plain tank style water heater

hot rod

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Lou Miller

How about Flextherm?

I just did an install of a Flextherm system. If you aren't familiar with it, instead of the mats, it's a wire that runs continuously under the tile. You use either 3 or 4" spacing on the wire. The one we completed was in a 450 SF room. The customer's loved it and so did I. Installing it was one of the easiest things I've done. The price is around 1/3 of the cost of the electric panels. We wanted to put hydronics in for these people, but the layout of the house, and the cost factor just didn't fit in with their budget. This was my first time using Flextherm, but I'm very impressed with their system. They've got a site at Flextherm.com, but it's a pain to use. You have to keep switching from French to English. It might be worth looking into for you. You'll easily be able to beat the tile guy's price if you can't talk them into hydronic.

Uni R

Electric Costs

"Would the electric cost of running a small 6 gallon heater be lower than the mat?"


Scott, I don't think that there is anything magic in a water heater that would make it get more BTUs from a KWHr than an electical mat would. Tank losses, piping losses and pumping losses must be considered as factors favoring more efficiency from the mats. If the rest of the house is electrically heated then it is a wash, because those losses stay inside the structure, although those losses will most likely occur outside the sunroom.


If they are likely to need a boiler in the future then radiant makes sense but otherwise straight electric might be a lot simpler for the H.O. (although it sure doesn't help you out).

Dave Yates (PAH)

Well....

I'd say: "As your heating specialist, I have the proper training to determine which source of radiant comfort will be the best and most economical long-term resolution (explaing briefly that you don't use rules of thumb of fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants methods - they'll know who you're referring to without having to say it). While we also install electric radiant floor mats, they aren't necessarily the best method and can be fairly inflexable for sun room applications. They are also the most expensive method where fuel costs are concerned and I don't expect costs for fuel to fall off. As a result, I design my customer's systems with the best products that offer the greatest renturn on your investment."

Then I'd give a brief overview of several options (I like the water heater scenario with a FPHX and remote injection with outdoor reset) and stress how the inclusion of radiant wall panel rads can offer a two-stage heating approach.

By this time (with little invested except your own hot air), you should be able to "read" your customer's level of confidence in you and determine if they're only interested in a race to the bottom of the barrel (money wise). If the $ is all that matters, fugetaboutit! If you can sell yourself first and the products second; the rest will fall into place & price becomes less important - the tile guy loses his edge. All's fair in love & war!

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hr

But crunch ALL the numbers

The load and required temperatures would be a real important number to know right away. A water heater with a FP hx may not make the load if the required radiant temperatures are up there. Remember a WH running at 130- 140 will not give you 130- 140 on the HX "B" side. You may not be able to, or want to crank up the WH temperature to drive the HX. You may need 160 tank temperatures to get the needed radiant temperatures? Or a mongo sized close approch HX

Watch the WH output temperature required or you may be forced to use mix valves to protect the DHW side.

Considering loss through the HX and a commercial sized HW tank inefficiency, that radiant side may be running below 70% efficiencies. Pencil this out againat the KW cost of the electric hydronic or mat system. It could in fact show the electric to be less expensive to operate?

It may go against you "hydronic blood" (and mine but electric cable, mat, etc does have some excellent applications. Electric radiant has seen a large market share increase in he last few years.

Present them 3 options and explain the pros and cons.

hot rod

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

I tell them

electric baseboard is a lot cheaper to install than hot water baseboard, but no one is installing it any more because of the high electric costs. Bob

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