Oil tech training to do gas service

Biged

I started my gas service training at NEFI last week, I did this years ago at Peterson but just wasn't comfortable working with gas but as the years go by I see this as a necessity because there is so many conversions being done
(KeySpan with their "free" appliances is really making a dent in Boston). I've been reading the code book and I'm a little confused about Rule 10 because it relates to the gas company. So can I do service on gas appliances up to and including all controls including gas valves? any further clairfication on this will be appreciated.

grindog

license

You must be a licensed gas fitter to do work on any type of gas appliance in the state of massachusetts.

Biged

Oil tech training to do gas service

So why am I spending so much money and time learning how to work on gas appliances if I can't touch it? or better still why are schools teaching courses if the students upon completion cant not do the work if they are not licensed?

grindog

call the state

you should call the state board of examiners to check on if you can service gas burners they will have all the answers to your questions i am a licensed plumber and gas fitter and the code book says that all plumbers and gas fitters must have a license and pull a permit to work on any type of gas appliance or plumbing fixture in a building or any type of residence. The only thing we dont have to pull permits for is changing washers in faucets.
Your best bet is to call the state or ask some on in charge at the fuel institute.

Unknown

So if you get a no heat

call and you have to replace a gas valve do you pull a permit before installing the valve? Can you pull permits at night?

Just what can you do to a gas boiler or furnace that does not require a permit?

Does your liscense allow you to service commercial boilers and furnaces?

grindog

permits

in mass all i know is to work on gas you need a license. If you work on oil you need a license. Commercial boiler are the same you need to be licensed to to work on the burner. If a boiler is over 1,000,000 btus then you need a pipefitters license to to work on boiler and its piping.
I am not discouraging you from doing gas work if you know what you are doing, just sharing some info so the next time you work on a gas burner you dont get in any trouble. Many local inspectors in the areas that i work are stoping in at houses where they see service vehicles parkedto check on what they are doing, and also in the state of massachusetts there have been problems with many contractors hiring men out of state that have no licenses

Unknown

grindog do you pull

a permit to change a gas valve?

grindog

no i dont

I do 90 percent install and 10 percent service and that rare time at 2 am when the customer needs a gas valve or thermocouple i will replace it with out a permit.
Not trying to make waves just trying to help answer a question. I pull gas and mechanical permits on any new install i do.

Unknown

The reason I asked

is that there is a lot of confusion in Mass as to what diferent liscenses allow you to do. The confusion does not make our jobs any easier. I was told by several different companies that they are required to pull a permit to change a gas valve because it involves piping. In other cases if an LP company has to replace a 2nd stage regulator they must pull a permit, yet the gas company can change a meter without a permit. There needs to be some order put to this process in Mass. I fully agree on permits for any major change of equipment or new installs. To require permits for doing service to existing equipment does not make sense.

The rules have now been changed as the new Mass Code will be in place April 1st. I just tried to get hold of the new code changes from the state book store and they do not know what I am talking about. What you now have to have is a copy of NFPA 54 2002 edition which is the latest edition and NFPA 58 - 2001 edition (latest is now 2004), then you will get the Mass amendments/modifiers and then you weave the new amendments into the code books as applicable. I was told the plumbing codes and gas code would be seperate but everyone I talk to at the state says that is not the case. I am going to call Joe Peluso the Exec Dir on Monday to get the correct information.

Rookie_3

My understanding was that in MA as well as NH you don't need a license to service gas appliances. You can also install them as long as the connection is made by a licensed plumber or pipe fitter. As far as a 2am permit I'm not sure how it works with a gas valve (I do oil) but if I was to install a new oil burner at 2am I would have 72 hours to turn a certificate of completion into the fire inspector excluding Satudays, Sundays, and holidays. There must be some provision for weekend or night calls for no heat gas work. Firedragon would be the guy for the questions. I've seen a couple of his post on licensing and code.

DAN

Weezbo

I would offer two very sane things to do ...

one is refuse to fix an appliance and suggest the homeowner rag on the legislative body adopting other peoples thinking...suggest they send the bill to the AHJ ,Muni...send a written comment into the local news papers ,.....or at least mention this choise they have.................take a real good look at what you think God gave you a mind for in the first place and go fix the thing...and mention the aforementioned in passing.....holing out a carrot 'Perhaps you could get enough support from the neighbours to bring a class action law suit against the government'....:) hey this is America ..Vote.

grindog

the gas company

I was told that the gas company can do any work before the meter because it is elevated presure and the gas fitter is responsible for the other side of the meter. In mass the jurisdiction can be confusing, any welding work that is done in the street epsecially in boston is done by pipefitters, mostly unoin local 537, the last power plant i worked in the gas piping was done by the plumbers and any one who could pas an exray welding test, but there is no inspectors from the state to inspect the work because it is considered processed piping and an engineer has to inspect it.
Between the politicians the labor unions and home depot teaching class on how to install gas appliances the craziness will never end.

ed wallace

Keyspan and gas

Keyspan is and has been hiring oil heat techs to service gas systems when i was hired in Nov. i asked about changing gas parts was told by the guy who was to be my supervisor that it was underhis state liscense that i was going to be doing repairs and they would have all kinds of training availiable that he would teach since then they have run ads 5 times in the newspaper me thinks they have a leadership problem

grindog

he must be a master

When i went to night school to get my plumbing license there were a bunch of guys from roto rooter studying for there license also.
Over the course of a few conversation they told me there was a master plumber in charge of dispatch and they would send out who ever was in that area to do the work required be it a clogged drain or a water heater instalation after completion of said work the master would go out and inspect the work to make sure it is in good working order and then pull the proper permits for the install.
I f the info i got was true then basically what you got is a bunch of apprentices running around doing journeyman work while the company bills out flat rate journeyman prices. I would not want to be the guy liable in thta situation .
Ed that is probably what the gas company is doing also working under one master license.

Bob Harper

Mass. hysteria

This is one of the craziest, most over-regulated states. On one hand, I feel sorry for the inhabitants having to pay through the nose for so much unnecessary crap but then again, they choose their politiicans and still choose to live in that state.

If you don't like it, vote in some politicians who will clean the mess up.

For instance, to sell a gas fireplace in Mass. you not only have to apply for a permit but include 3 copies of the installation manual and pay UL $450.00 for a copy of the listing report, then send it all to a bunch of plumbers who decide on whether or not this appliance is fit for use in their state. Mfrs. have gone to a lot of expense to get their units pre-approved so these unecessary costs don't have to add to the cost of each Fp. This is insane. It's got nothing to do with the safety and welfare of the public and everything to do with exerting control & power, and forcing people to spend extra money and jump through hoops. It's an unfair restraint of trade and it has killed the hearth industry in that state. Who's next? Conn.?

Ray Landry

Mass was one of the last states to adopt pex for potable water piping (just passed last week)but it's only to be used in res. applications under three stories. csst gas pipe is approved but you get picked apart by every inspector who has his own set of 'rules' you need to go buy which are nowhere in cmr 248 or the csst guides,ect. We have something likke 12 massachusettes modifications to the csst codes to make it even harder to install (I don't like the stuff anyways so it doesnt bother me that much) Cast Iron drainage piping needs to be used in commercial buildings, (no pvc cause they say that it will burn to quickly; I think it's too keep the union plumbers busy with snap cutters and no hub clamps) Some inspectors don't likke pro press and make you mark the make of every fitting you assemble t o prove it was pushed into the socket all the way. Mass is definetly stringent when it comes to Plumbing. Heating is another story, sadly enough there is no liscence required to fit past the backflow preventer of a boiler. No heat loss design needs to be given (a few select towns do have a mechanical inspector) Combustion analysis tests do not need to be done @ start up, so any tom **** or harry can throw in a condensing boiler, never set their gas inlet pressure, cake up the hx and produce enough CO to kill someone who just opened their window which is right above the boiler's exhaust (the exhaust by hte way wasn't installed up to code, but the PLUMBING inspector didn't even glance @ it during inspection, because 1/2 of them look at the bfp, 30# relief, and you journeyman's or masters card and THAT"S IT. I'll stop ranting now.

Ray Landry

Mass was one of the last states to adopt pex for potable water piping (just passed last week)but it's only to be used in res. applications under three stories. csst gas pipe is approved but you get picked apart by every inspector who has his own set of 'rules' you need to go buy which are nowhere in cmr 248 or the csst guides,ect. We have something likke 12 massachusettes modifications to the csst codes to make it even harder to install (I don't like the stuff anyways so it doesnt bother me that much) Cast Iron drainage piping needs to be used in commercial buildings, (no pvc cause they say that it will burn to quickly; I think it's too keep the union plumbers busy with snap cutters and no hub clamps) Some inspectors don't likke pro press and make you mark the make of every fitting you assemble t o prove it was pushed into the socket all the way. Mass is definetly stringent when it comes to Plumbing. Heating is another story, sadly enough there is no liscence required to fit past the backflow preventer of a boiler. No heat loss design needs to be given (a few select towns do have a mechanical inspector) Combustion analysis tests do not need to be done @ start up, so any tom **** or harry can throw in a condensing boiler, never set their gas inlet pressure, cake up the hx and produce enough CO to kill someone who just opened their window which is right above the boiler's exhaust (the exhaust by hte way wasn't installed up to code, but the PLUMBING inspector didn't even glance @ it during inspection, because 1/2 of them look at the bfp, 30# relief, and your journeyman's or masters card and THAT"S IT. I'll stop ranting now.

grindog

its so true

i totally agree with you and theres not much we can do

C. Faucher

Last summer I asked for an interpretation of the gas code regarding Gas Burner Repairs. 248 CMR 4.00 rule 10 gets a little fuzzy.

Rule 10 states:
The adjusting of the appliance controls, the adjusting of the gas flames,the replacement of the controls , the installation or replacement of the meters and regulators and the servicing of the appliance shall be deemed work for which no permit is required (Utility Gas).

No permit shall be required for the restoration of gas service after a gas meter or meter fit is relocated under the following rules:

A. The work shall be done by authorized employees of the gas companies organized under M.G.L. c. 164

B.The required piping reconnection shall not exceed 10 feet.

C.The piping reconnection shall be labelled by the installing gas company.

The point I wanted clarified was if no permit is required to replace controls than is a license required to do the work outlined in Rule 10.

Verbally the answer was "You must be a licensed gas fitter or plumber to replace any piping on a gas installation.That includes the breaking of the union after the appliance shutoff valve to replace a gas valve" I am still waiting for that in writing (hear the crickets)...

I am waiting as well as the rest of you poor taxachusetts plumbers to see what the new code contains. Will it match the HYPE