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Buderus Boilers

Dan_15
Dan_15 Member Posts: 388
I have just read the post soliciting options on Viessmann boilers, and I feel compelled to ask the same question about their closest competitor in the high-end foreign boiler market. What do you think of the blue one?
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Comments

  • Rick Kelly_3
    Rick Kelly_3 Member Posts: 47
    Buderus

    Best oil boiler on the market for the price.
  • Michal
    Michal Member Posts: 213
    my true opinion

    Buderus is what has got me away from using weil mclains and if people had the money I would install viessmans, but Buderus is excellent and love installing them
  • Al Gregory
    Al Gregory Member Posts: 260


    I just cant bring myself to buy one. Why buy a boiler made in another country? Also I just dont like boilers without inspection doors. I know that they need to be set up with instruments but I like to be able to check the fire with my own two eyes. Plus after the customer has reset in a bunch of times its nice to be able to burn off the excess oil with the door open. I will stick to Burnham, WM, and Peerless :)
  • EJW
    EJW Member Posts: 321
    Buderus

    Dan the Buderus is a great oil boiler, quiet & efficient. A good investment, no matter what Al says. EJW
  • Michal
    Michal Member Posts: 213
    go the distance

    Al you should go the distance and set up a boiler with instruments, not to be rude, but all boilers at least oil shall be set up that way, the extra hour isnt going to kill you but will cut your profit a bit i guess. Buderus has been around for over 200 years in europe and almost 12 in the US. Let me ask what typoes of cars do you drive? is it american, are all your tools american? probobly not, I knocked buderus till I installed my first one, great piece of equipment
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    I think of Buderus as the Highland Park 15 y.o. of single malt scotch. Terrific quality and taste for an excellent $$$ value.
  • Steve_35
    Steve_35 Member Posts: 546
    You don't need

    to burn off excess oil with a Buderus boiler. Open the door and wipe it out.

    And if you use a Riello burner they have to hit the reset 9 times to equal a primary control that locks out after 45 seconds of puking oil in the chamber.
  • Al Gregory
    Al Gregory Member Posts: 260


    Ford & Chevy trucks and Snap On and Craftsman tools.. I do know how to set up a boiler with instruments ;) Its just a personal preferance thing. Again I wont buy foreign burners when the Carlin is just as good if not better. I owned one foreign car in my whole life. I wont buy another. Again it's just personal preferance. That boiler might be the best thing since sliced bread but it would have to be the only boiler left in the supply house before I buy one. Don't take me the wrong way I just buy American when I can.
  • Sweet_2
    Sweet_2 Member Posts: 143
    I like your thinking Al !!!

  • Dave Stroman
    Dave Stroman Member Posts: 761


    We do not use oil burners in the Denver area. But when you compare a basic Buderus gas burner to any basic American boiler, there is a marked difference. Much more cast iron, heavier jacket, and much more insulation. I can buy a Buderus boiler for less than I can buy a Burnham. I had to use a Weil McLain the other day just because it was smaller and would fit in the closet. If I am not using a condenser, my first choice is the big German blue one.

    Here is 2 Buderus boilers fitted with Carlin gas burners. I used these before the condensers became popular. You can pipe the fresh air right to the burner. The second photo is what we replaced.

    Dave in Denver
    Dave Stroman
  • Dave what did you get

    for a combustion analysis on those boilers with the Carlin Burners if you don't mind me asking???
  • kevin coppinger_4
    kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124
    well...

    nice work Dave...I do like Buderus boilers too...and your points are well taken as to why many like them...BUT it appears that at long last Burnham & Weil are getting on board (before they lose lots of the market) we will see how well on board in a couple of months...If they can offer the same great featurs and a competitive price many will return to them...kpc

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  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    I like the Blue boyz *~/:)

    by riello burner for them and tigerloop combo....BF Riello is an option in certain instances .......i have been wondering about the availability of my slant fins this year so i have opted to buy 6 buderas early which is actually la ~te now....really i was looking at the intrepids with riellos I just like slant fins as irrational as that may sound....
  • Dave Stroman
    Dave Stroman Member Posts: 761


    Hi Tim, It has been a couple of years since I set these up so I do not remember all the readings. I do remember that it is possible to get the CO practicaly to zero but we had problems with hard light offs at this altitude. We adjusted the CO to about 25 ppm by restricing the air intake. It makes for a much smoother light off. On this job we had a flue height of about 45 ft. and had real good draft. These boilers have removable baffles inside and with the Carlin burners they have to be removed so there is less back pressure against the burners. On this job we did not because of the great draft. I talked to a Carlin rep. one time and he was surprised that we were using these burners in these boilers. He said these burners were designed to fire into big wide open chamber with no back pressure. I don't know, we have many of these installed and have no, I mean no problems. Not one call back. These burners are so quite. Unlike some Reilo's that you can hear from the street when you pull up to the house. The problem is the Carlin's will only do 180,000 Btu's. On this job we have to do 2 stagged boilers. The house was built in 1920 just after the big flu. The radiators are all SO big. We were able to cut the boiler size and gas input drastically. Check out this big radiator.

    Dave in Denver
    Dave Stroman
  • dconnors
    dconnors Member Posts: 215
    you could try opening our door

    the burner door swings open so you can check for excess oil. kinda makes it easy to clean unlike some of the others.
  • B. Tice
    B. Tice Member Posts: 206
    12 years??

    Buderus has been here 12 years? Uh, try like 25 years. I installed one in 1984. Anyway, I think there are alot of good boilers out there. I feel there are some American boilers just as good as Buderus. However, a Buderus is superior to any pin boiler. Also, I think it is better than the other popular euro boiler, the Crown Freeport.
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    Forgive me for returning to the original question, but.... no matter who you ask, people seems to be convinced that Viessmann is the greatest boiler since sliced bread, but when it comes to Buderus, suddenly everybody has their own opinion about Buderus vs Crown vs American made. Tell me, what accounts for this rabid impartiality for the Viessmann on the one hand, but incredible choosiness when it comes to Buderus? They are both great boilers!!!
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    > Ford & Chevy trucks and Snap On and Craftsman

    > tools.. I do know how to set up a boiler with

    > instruments ;) Its just a personal preferance

    > thing. Again I wont buy foreign burners when the

    > Carlin is just as good if not better. I owned

    > one foreign car in my whole life. I wont buy

    > another. Again it's just personal preferance.

    > That boiler might be the best thing since sliced

    > bread but it would have to be the only boiler

    > left in the supply house before I buy one. Don't

    > take me the wrong way I just buy American when I

    > can.



  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388
    Made in America??

    > Ford & Chevy trucks and Snap On and Craftsman

    > tools.. I do know how to set up a boiler with

    > instruments ;) Its just a personal preferance

    > thing. Again I wont buy foreign burners when the

    > Carlin is just as good if not better. I owned

    > one foreign car in my whole life. I wont buy

    > another. Again it's just personal preferance.

    > That boiler might be the best thing since sliced

    > bread but it would have to be the only boiler

    > left in the supply house before I buy one. Don't

    > take me the wrong way I just buy American when I

    > can.



  • My first boiler

    was a Buderus back in the 80's. Installed it for one of my high school friends and it was my first hybrid system (radiant in the basement, radiators on the first floor, hydroair w/ air conditioning for the upper floors and an indirect water heater) and it's still absolutely fine, working all this time with no problems.

    Sorry, but I have not had such good luck with American boilers. And please, don't call me un-American just because I said that.

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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,508
    The Difference

    There is a difference between V & B boilers, Dan. Viessmann sits at the top with a comprehensive product line and several hundred more engineers doing R&D than Buderus. Since Buderus has been purchased by Bosch, you can expect greater engineering input and hopefully more R&D. Viessmann makes all its components and designs in-house. (Solar tubes excepted) It is a privately held company. The design differences are often subtle, but very apparent to experienced boiler technicians. The steel fabrication is also different between the companies. Buderus is a "competitive" German boiler and has less "bells & whistles". These differences between products can only be discovered by installing several of each model and attending the training seminars given by the Mfg. If you're able to sell at a higher pricepoint, than Viessmann should pose no issues to the argument "it cost too much..." Better (and best) costs more. If you're new to German boiler technology, than most contractors start with Buderus.

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  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,782
    Allow me to quibble...

    I can think of more than just the Thermomax products when it comes to products that Viessmann rebadges, even in the US market. For example, to cover the lower end of the boiler market, they now offer the VitoRond (50?) with a Riello burner and US-only controls.

    Then, when you go through their EU site, they offer all sorts of tasty things like PV systems, cogen systems, etc. that I doubt that they make a significant percentage of, other than the exterior shell.

    I also recall the people at Viessmann to be quite upfront about buying licenses from other people for things like burner technology that they liked but had not developed in-house. This is a big step up from most companies who suffer from the dreaded NIH syndrome.

    However, I do agree with the thrust of your argument, i.e. that Viessmann is a remarkably well-integrated company that produces a high percentage of the parts going into its products (on average). This probably accounts for why their products play as nice with each other as they do, and why their products feature many details that set them apart from the competition.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,508
    Noted

    The Riello burner that comes with the Vitorond still says "Riello". Viessmann does not purchase other mfg's controls and "brand" them. I suspect that their Cogen equip uses Man engines, but since I don't have access to that product line, it's not for me to comment.

    My argument is to simply differentiate between the companies....which ain't so easy to make clear to those considering their products. Just because both companies are German, does not make them the "same", and there are many differences in the product line and market approach.

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  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,782
    I couldn't agree more...

    .... and it is this attitude that sets them apart from their competition worldwide... and it is this attitude that allows them to value-price their products the way they do. My hat goes off to a company like Viessmann that knows how to sell the steak and the sizzle.
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718


    Hey Constantin. Just adding some info to let people know the following.

    The competitive Viessamm oil fired boiler is the Vitorond 100 with a Becket NX burner.

    The competitive gas fired unit is the Vitogas 050 ECD and ECV series.

    Want an easy way to compare Buderus and Viessman. Viessmann has more depth, Buderus has better pricing as an entire line.
    PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    I hear what you are saying about Viessmann's in-house manufacturing and vertical integration of products. But when all is said and done, what does Viessmann offer over Buderus for the average guy who needs a simple oil fired boiler to run an uncomplicated heating system with no radiant heat? My biggest concerns as a HO are fuel efficiency and longevity in that order, and as far as I can determine, Buderus oil fired boilers are just as excellent as Viessmann on both those counts, assuming the benefits of vertical product integration are not at play.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,508
    If...

    fuel efficiency and longevity are your concerns, than the Vitola bi-ferral boiler with oil chassis burner and Vitotronic 200 control will outperform the Buderus. You'll pay more $$ than the Buderus setup, but gain 5-10% system efficiency. Those differences may take years to recover the original cost of equipment investment, but make sense as fuel costs rise. If cost is really the deciding factor then the Buderus system will be more appealing. The longevity of the equipment has as much to do with yearly maintainence, return water temps and boiler water chemistry as the quality of the casting or burner spec.

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  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    I hate to get to the point, but what makes the quality of the Viessmann casting better than Buderus? How many more years of longevity on average am I going to get out of the Viessmann, as compared to a Buderus G215 with the built-in ability for low return temps, fired by a Riello burner, assuming that yearly maintenance is always properly performed? Isnt that the key data point? Are a couple of extra years on the Viessmann, if that is even the case, going to justify the higher cost? I have still not found any case for the Viessmann over Buderus in the simple average application, other than the fact that professionals admire its artfulness.
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718


    The point I was making is that there is little difference when it comes to simple systems and boilers. Veissmann excells with the high end stuff. But even with radiant and high end heating systems, I rarely need to use Viessmann. Buderus is more than adequate.


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  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,782
    Thanks for the clarification, Ted!

    I'm sorry that I got the burner wrong on the VitoRond. Considering that we both attended the same introduction to Viessmann products class, I should take this as a signal to start taking Gingko...

    As for the Viessmann vs. the Buderus debate, I cannot comment intelligently on how much each boiler will save a homeowner. As with all such questions, a lot probably depends on the particular system. For example,
    • The inherently shock-proof design of a Vitola makes it ideal for low temp, radiant heating applications. Yes, the Buderus can approximate the same thing with pump logic, but that's an additional pump, extra kWh, etc., but its not nearly as elegant a solution as the biferral design.
    • Similarly, the ACEEE has published up to 8x lower electrical energy consumption numbers for the Vitodens than of the competition.
    • Viessmann also offers other options like the flue gas temperature sensor that are a great feature for oil boilers... a foolproof way to detect sooting.
    • I also like how the Vitotronic 200 is already set up to accept future upgrades... like hi/low burners, modulating burners, etc. The Vitotronic 200 also offers tons of ways to adjust the reset curves, etc.
    Anyway, I doubt anyone ends up being unhappy with either boiler if it is properly installed and maintained.
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    Michal...

    Do you really like working for free? Come to work for me, I can keep you busy...

    I have a place on my estimation spread sheet where I plug time in for commisioning. I also charge to educate the HO on how to operate their system. NOTHING is free, and NO ONE should be working for free. The only thing that I give away is simple advise, and thats a part of the education process. Everyone else pays.

    I like the big blue German boiler. It's our primary line.. We also deal in the big V as well.

    Great products, and great support. A person can't tie themsleves to one individual ine any more without seriously limiting their marketing capability. And as for allegiance to American made products, unless you only work for union employed people, you will be SERIOUSLY limiting your abilities. Look at the vehicles they have at their home, and the appliances inside. Are there any televisions still made in the US of A?

    I used to be on the other side of the fence, only dealing in American built products. I'd tell people, "You don't really want to buy that German crap do you? It takes 6 weeks to get parts for those boilers, and you can't find anyone to work on them..." Then, I went to work for a company that only deals in European boilers, and boy, was I WRONG. The gas trains are Honeywell (American) and I have YET to replace a block on one. Even if I needed to, there are enough in stock on this side of the pond that I wouldn't have to wait the 6 weeks I used to threaten people with...

    Times, they are a changin'.

    Hope I don't offend to many people. That was not my intention.

    ME
  • radiant_5
    radiant_5 Member Posts: 5
    boiler

    This post is to long and my attention span to short to read it all but if I grabbed the jist of it I believe this gentleman would like the differences between oil fired V vs. oil fired B. PP ive noticed posts a lot about Viessmann so I was surprised to read the comment(s) subtle differences and etc..... To me if we are talking oil the VB2 is it.Of course V offers the sectional as well but with the VB2 why use any other so lets see about the subtle differences being brief as possible.

    1) overall design nothing that compares.
    2) Peak efficiency in seconds due to stainless steel fire chamber. heat transfer blah blah blah
    3) No low limit restriction "No" "NONE"
    4) Huge water waterways.
    5) cylindrical design with taps entering in the middle of the donut so all system air "if pumping away" gets back to the boiler. has no choice but float to top of cylinder and be released by air vent on safety header (which is also a great feauture. when installed in a replacement situation if any sediment, crap whatever gets back to the boiler its at the base. flame is in the middle IT NEVER LOSES EFFICIENCY.
    6) two sets of taps and out the back. Cool! now i can stick my verticell (what other tank would you use?thats another run on comparison on its own)right next to the boiler have very little piping, very little stand by loss, not pulling any heat through the heating side or header at all.
    7)lets use an average boiler size say 150,000 out the VB2 has 37 gallons as opposed to what 8. yes 37g's long burn cycles at peak efficiency$$ then of for long periods of time. a lot less cycles which means what, a lot less wear and tear.
    8) put jacket and insulation on after you carry it in and plumb it, no worry about damage getting it in. dont have to hear electricians and whoever else say it wasnt me who stepped on your boiler. The amount of insulation and ease of installing the jacketry should be one point in itself. dont forget that boiler stand, great set of legs and way up firm and high.
    9) how about that secondary filter they provide and tiger loop pretty cool huh.
    10) controls there isnt enough time for that one. can you say KM Bus DIGITAL and oh yeah who makes there mixing valves and motors (the best in the business) oh yeah they do. plug in self diagnostic through control oh yeah.
    11)if none of those subtle differences are enough i got three words for you Vi to flame ok one word but there is nothing more dependable, easier to service or better burning than this I can assure you and guess what it only fits the VB2 by VIessmann.
    12) oh yeah since i said service how about that huge easy to open swing door and ss fire chamber that pops right out and isnt a kicker when you go back year after year and its still burning perfectly and almost nothing to clean, bummer

    THere are more subtle differences however who has the time. I gots to go and install me some biferral's.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Alan That Attachment looks American! *~/;)

    isnt that an old monkey wards? i have one stashed in the yard ...one day i am going to sand blast and enamel it for a center piece in my living room, ...how can i get the attachment of yours for future reference when i go to plumb it ?
  • Ken_8
    Ken_8 Member Posts: 1,640
    Hate to burst your bubble,

    But the alleged superiority of the V over anything; is pure marketing - period.

    It is so good you actually believe that marketing - and embrace it.

    Madison Avenue exists; it was perfeceted in Deutschland however. The marketing budget of Viessmann is probably 10 times the R&D budget. Whether or not their product is superior is debateable. One cannot question their superiority in marketing.

    They are without question the absolute very best - period.

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  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,782
    Ken,

    Since you seem to have such a detailed knowledge of Viessmann's SG&A and R&D spending, I would appreciate if you could post them. If you don't have a breakdown of their marketing vs. R&D costs, I'd like to know how you arrived at your 10x number. In many manufacturing environments, SG&A eats up 20-30% of the gross income, with R&D in the 5-9% range, though it varies by industry, and there are many other things in the SG&A expenses pot besides marketing.

    As best as I can tell, the Vitola has some unique features and accessories that set it apart from the competition. Can the Buderus control logic drive a modulating oil burner or monitor a flue gas sensor? I can't tell because the publicly-available documentation on the Buderus USA web-site is incomplete or missing. To be fair, the publicly-available information on Viessmann's site is also a lot less detailed than the stuff found in their private site area.

    However, there are more areas where Viessmann differentiates itself from the competition with the Vitola. For example, it would also be news to me that the G115 can be fed radiant floor heating return water temperatures without resorting to boiler protection via pump logic. Can the Logomatic be integrated into a whole-house HVAC system that can be driven off an internet web-server? You might consider these useless features, but others don't.

    This is not to say that Buderus doesn't have a dizzying array of well-built boilers in all shapes and sizes that doubtlessly also delight their owners. However, from my end of the sandbox Buderus seems to be following a Pepsico strategy of following the leader when it comes to the introduction of new products, not a leadership position. Why else would the US market have to wait for years until Buderus could be bothered to introduce a condensing, modulating gas heating system when others have offered them for years over here?
  • Mark Avron_2
    Mark Avron_2 Member Posts: 2


    Just a little correction. The Buderus G215 oil fired boiler is a thermal-shock PROOF boiler. Unlimited return water temperature. Achieved with an internal distribution tube and direction of water flow through the boiler. There is a difference between flue gas condesation and thermal-shock. The condensate protection of the R2107 control DOES NOT require an additional circulator. It controls (directly or indirectly) all zoning and/or system pumps.
  • Mark Avron_2
    Mark Avron_2 Member Posts: 2


    Just a little correction. The Buderus G215 oil fired boiler is a thermal-shock PROOF boiler. Unlimited return water temperature. Achieved with an internal distribution tube and direction of water flow through the boiler. There is a difference between flue gas condesation and thermal-shock. The condensate protection of the R2107 control DOES NOT require an additional circulator. It controls (directly or indirectly) all zoning and/or system pumps.
  • dconnors
    dconnors Member Posts: 215
    whew

    Wish the majority of the market would be willing to pay for all this. There is intelligent heating and then there's the "lets over do everthing mentality". I think the consumer is best served when efficiencies and overall costs are a balanced approach. I have sold alot of different appliances over the years. I always try to remember that a 5 year payback is the standard. Anything that takes 10 years or more is excessive. Last time I checked you could get a Buderus for a fair price with great AFUE's. We will continue to keep offering new technologies as the market allows.
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    I concur with your balanced approach, although there is one feature of the Viessmann that I have learned about through this conversation that was heretofore unknown to me. The heating system in my 84 y.o. house is based on a previous coal-fired boiler that used to supply 11 rads with big mains in the basement. Accordingly, my system has a huge water mass. I have been made to believe that the large water capacity of the Viessmann would probably handle the large water mass of my system a bit more efficiently than my current Buderus G215, i.e., longer firing times, but fewer heat cycles. I wish my installed had clued me into this before selling me the Buderus. At the end of the day, however, my oil savings is probably nominal between the Viessmann and Buderus.
  • radiant_5
    radiant_5 Member Posts: 5
    Kenny bubble burster

    Viesmann puts something like 80%of profits back in to R&d more than most any other company heating or other. There marketing has been very limited so I have no idea what you are talking about, (actually that should say You instead of I). They have been over here for quite some time and have come to the forefront via having superior products not marketing. We have had to beg from the beginning just to get literature. They still have not put out a consumer piece (you know with the happy smiling warm family on the front)as have others. Get informed before you spew forth your garbage (opinions) as fact.
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