Munchkin F09 failure

Ed Goldner, NJ

I installed a Munchkin T80M boiler in my house yesterday and on start up I kept getting loss of flame failure codes, with flame present, repeatedly on start up. I checked all the connections, ground, pulled the flame sensor, etc.The result was that when I reinstalled my zone valves I had a water leak directly above the boiler when I went to refill the system. Even though the cover was on the boiler, somehow water found its way inside the 925 control. I removed the control, put my wife's hairdryer to it, reinstalled it and it worked fine.
When I was checking out the Munchkin I noticed that some people were having nuisance F09 failure codes. I was thinking that because the control is located inside the burner section and exposed to outside air condensation could be an issue in these intermittent failures.
Now back to the basement.....

Mark Eatherton1

Need to adjust burner

Upon commisioning, you need to adjust the burner per the instructions. Just because you have flame does not mean that it is properly adjusted. Adjustment requires that a combustion analyzer be used which is NOT in every mans arsenal of tools...

ME

Ed Goldner, NJ

I have a Bacharach portable combustion analyzer in my van which I was not about to use at 10:30 at night unless absolutely necessary. My problem was caused by water in the boiler control, drying out the control corrected the problem. I posted it to perhaps help some others that may have a loss of flame signal code that pops up intermittantly.

Mark Eatherton1

I see...

I still think its a good idea to run it through the analyzer. So does the manufacturer.

ME

Mark Hunt

But Ed


It IS absolutely necessary to run the analyzer regardless of the time of install.

I understood your post, but if you fire a Munchkin at 10:00pm or 1:00am or 3:30pm it makes no difference.

You HAVE to set them up with the analyzer. No exceptions ever.

Good eye finding the water issue!

Mark H

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Ed Goldner, NJ

Munchkin myths resolved

I have been doing commericial and industrial work for the past 15 years (plus about a year off beating cancer) and didn't even know about these new residential condensing boilers until about a month ago. I did quite a bit of research into them and there seemed to be an extremely high positive feedback rate from owners. My main concern is the duriabilty of the SS heat exchanger. Remember the Blue Ray? The other problems were undiagnosed F09 failures and periodic harmonic vibrations. The idea that I couldn't purchase the Vision I package without factory authorized training made me consider the WM Ultra. But alumiunum is for making beer cans as far as I'm concerned. What I have learned comes from HTP, Advanced Hydronics-the district rep. for Munchkin and Peerless Pinacle in my area ,personel observation and one of the most unusual sources....the instruction manual!

I was told that the Munchkin comes through preset from the factory. Due to the normally consistant heating value of natrual gas , no further adjustments were necessary. The manual seems to confirm this.

I don't know how to do a combustion analysis at any time when a boiler only fires for 3 seconds on ignition trial and shuts down. Again the manual say's this may occur on initial start-up but after about 24 attempts I was begining to wonder. Seeing that the burner uses rectification to prove flame(fire-good, no fire- bad)and did not use some new high tech flame quality proving device, after checking a few basics and not knowing the flame signal requirements I removed the ignition control and felt dampness. I also had this same problem with a Honeywell control on a Crown boiler once.

Anyway now that everything has settled down and the boiler is running I wanted to check it out for my own piece of mind since I had messed with the throttling screw and may have lost count of the # of turns when I put it back to the starting point. I put it in test mode and went to high fire. I clocked the meter at 2cu.ft. in 115 sec. I opened the throttling adjustment to get 2 cu.ft. in 90 sec. right about on 80,000. Now remember I am in test and running full open. On start up with about 110 return water using a Bacahrach PCA65 I was running in the upper 7 percentile on both O2 & CO2 and 10ppm CO, 98.2% eff., after about 10 min. with 160 return water I was running 7% O2 7.8% CO2 15ppm CO and 90.1 eff. Adjusting the throttling screw 1 turn either way caused no significant change in readings but brought me out of range of my 80,000 input rating. I could not get the 8.5%-9.5% suggested in the manual. When I drove it down to the minimum possible on low fire the burner made a consistant vibrating sound which seemed to be from a lean mix . I did not take any readings at this point. This condition has not happened during the course of normal operation so I am going to leave well enough alone. I'am not going to install an indirect WH because I can buy 6, 10 year warranty gas fired heaters for the price of 1 Munchkin.

Now that the smoke has cleared I think there is more fear of this technology than is warranted. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

ED

jalcoplumb_2

I would think

an indirect added to the munchkin is not that bad. I use the Super-Stor it has a lifetime warranty. In your terms it is only the price of about two water heaters.

That 50gal gas has gone up quite a bit in the past two years. So has the gas to run it.

Rely_2

set up burner

every time you install one,I have and that goes for ultra munchkin and trinity.Not one was set to the right CO2

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Mark Eatherton1

Ed...

Congrats on your battle with cancer. Keep an eye on it.

As for your demystified Munchkin, you still need to adjust the CO to factory specs. If you don't, flame ionization is affected, and you will start getting nuisance lockouts due to lack of flame confirmation. It builds up a resistant coating on the flame rod.

I believe they want to see upwards of 110 PPM on high, and 0 to 20 on low. (At least this is the case on my T50). Anyway, if you start having issues, you'll know where to go.

Tell us more about the BlueRay burner...I have a BURNING desire to know:-)

Thanks.

ME

Ed Goldner, NJ

Blue Ray oil burners

back around 1980 were pretty much ahead of their time. I think their motto was burn oil blue and save. They had a perforated insert in the drawer and actually burned with a blue flame. One problem was a cad cell could not see the flame so a stack (bi-metallic) sensor had to be used, I forget the Honeywell number. If I rember correctly they had to run at 12.5% CO2 and ran in the high 80's afue. Their furnaces were alright but they came out with a SS boiler and they were notorious leakers as far as I remember and that put them out of business. I was certified to service them, but haven't seen one in years.

As far as the Munchkin I tried opening up the throttle setting to get my CO2 up to specs. but I was going way over the rated input of 80,000 and losing efficiency. Probably due to rising stack temp. although I did not record it. I am planning to attend service and Vision training in about 2 weeks, I hope to find out more then. I already have the manuals I,II & III W/codes and plan to install an OD sensor this weekend. You can order replacement sensors and common molex FM connector pins are available at most electronics stores. Imagination is free.

ED

Mark Eatherton1

Thanks...

for the info. Your problem may be a need for offset adjustment. Call the guys (or Guy) at the factory and they can walk you through that procedure.

ME