Geothermal

Josh_10

Looks good man! There are a few Geothermal guys here. I quite bringing it up to customers because I can't show less than a ten year pay off. If someone asks then we will do it. Instead I am using an air source heat pump with a refer/water heat exchanger. I can show less than a 7 year pay off. That is what I usually recommend to my customers for heat pump integration.

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deltat

Just finished a nice radiant job where the whole house is now running at low temps. When we were finish the owner, who had obviously been doing some research, asked us about installing a closed loop vertical geothermal system with a boiler back-up. This is of course a great idea but my problem is that I didn’t bring up the topic first – too focused on the conventional way.

How much geothermal are you guys selling? Do you bring it up often when discussing the job with potential clients?

Craig R Bergman

The FIRST thing EVERY time....

Before we talk about the cost of Geothermal, we talk about the cost of ownership with Geothermal. For new construction a 2,000 sqft home, on the main floor, will add 8-12K to the cost of construction. This cost will add 56 to 84 dollars per month to the mortage. However...That same home will save, on average, $1,500 a year in heating, cooling and hot water costs. (This is at TODAYS gas prices)

For those who spend 56 to 84 dollars a month to install Geo, they will save $125 a month on utility bills. They have a POSITIVE cash flow of 69-41 dollars every month.

Remember, these numbers are an average. the larger the home the larger the savings. We are in the middle of a 10,000 sqft project that will save the owners $2,879.00 every year AT TODAYS NATURAL GAS PRICES!

The real question should be.... How can you afford NOT to have Geothermal in your home?

Bergy

Josh_10

That's a good way to put it Craig. Good on ya. In my area interestingly enough I can show a positive of $32 more than Geothermal with an air source heat pump. Don't get me wrong I think Geothermal is a better unit but I can show a much faster payback installing an air source heat pump with a heat exchanger for radiant.

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Michael Dilling

Cost of operation savings versus installed costs for geothermal

I am so glad to see other Geo-contractors who understand the economics. There are so many factors that determine the costs and the savings such as local utility rates and incentives and of course the local climate. In the great lakes area where I operate,air source heat pumps are usually not considered due to the climate and past bad press. However, the other issue is so many new home owners are considering and installing low temp radiant floor heating and high velocity forced air cooling systems. With my geothermal products I can go in and install one compressor bearing unit that will serve both and give on demand, full capacity domestic water heating. That system with it's high COP's ( average 4.75 in the field)can really show some almost unbelievable operating costs. I know you guys in Georgia/Arkansas/Texas won;t see it but up here we can cool 2500 sf for less than $100 a season. But we don't have the load you do. However with utility inventives we can also heat and provide 100% domestic hot water for less than $400 a year. Real world. If anyone reading this wants to know more, then write and ask questions. There are guys doing this and you can be one too.

Michael Dilling

Cost of operation savings versus installed costs for geothermal

I am so glad to see other Geo-contractors who understand the economics. There are so many factors that determine the costs and the savings such as local utility rates and incentives and of course the local climate. In the great lakes area where I operate,air source heat pumps are usually not considered due to the climate and past bad press. However, the other issue is so many new home owners are considering and installing low temp radiant floor heating and high velocity forced air cooling systems. With my geothermal products I can go in and install one compressor bearing unit that will serve both and give on demand, full capacity domestic water heating. That system with it's high COP's ( average 4.75 in the field)can really show some almost unbelievable operating costs. I know you guys in Georgia/Arkansas/Texas won't see it but up here we can cool 2500 sf for less than $100 a season. But we don't have the load you do. However with utility inventives we can also heat and provide 100% domestic hot water for less than $400 a year. Real world. If anyone reading this wants to know more, then write and ask questions. There are guys doing this and you can be one too.

Josh_10

I agree 100%.. I think the determining factor is definatly location..

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Craig Bergman

Location

How about everywhere from within 5* of the artic circle to the equator? That's where Geothermal systems are in operation today.

Bergy

Pinball

How can that be? I don't know alot about heat pumps, But I do know they run on Electric. In our area (Hudson Valley),Electric is the most ineffiecient way of doing ANYTHING! I've heard the line that for every "unit of electric" you buy, you get back "Five units of heat" to me it does'nt make sense. Unless that heat pump actually Produces electric.
Also, I've heard the statment "Get a heat pump, Get off fossil fuels" again, is'nt electric produced primarily by coal, Natural gas, and oil?
I went to a seminar a couple of years ago,on "Green building". While there were heat pump enthusiasts there. There was also one gentleman who spoke about the real effeciency of electric. One of the things he showed was a chart and graph that basically said that for every watt that the average person uses, the electric plant has to produce 5 watts. unless your house is on the same property as the generator. The line losses, and "heat losses" actually make electric efficiency a negitive number.
Another Question, I was taught that a heat pump is basically an airconditioner running backwards! an I know what all the power companies say in the summer when we need it most! "conserve! conserve! Or else face "rolling blackouts"! Tell me in logical, understandable, words, how a heat pump is the best choice! so far no one has been able to.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, I just don't understand it.Please educate me without all the hype.
Thanks
Al

singh

Good Points

Pinball-
where in hudson valley are you? Check with Central Hudson, they have some good info on GSHP. A GSHP does not produce heat, it moves it., from ground to compressor. When the earth loop (evaporator) is 50* in winter and is pumped into home with ,let's say a radiant floor running at 85* It is very easy for the refrigerant in the unit to exceed that temp. So all you paid for was the pump energy. If that was 1KW (3414 btu) ,but you would have 4KW (13,656 btu) of stored energy available, A total of 17,070 btu's or a COP of 5. But you only paid for 1 !!
I agree our electrical grid is in poor shape, I beleive soon we will have to invest heavily in the infrastructure of our country. This includes more nuke plants, hydroelectric plants and solar and wind. So as to not make delivering and producing electric as inefficient as you say.
But at least with electric we can produce it here, rather than importing barrels of oil from some other place and being dependant on that. How inefficient is a gal of oil consumed, when you think of how it's deliverd .
BTW maybe Edison was right, DC intstead of Testa AC current we use. But AC has ability to travel 100's of miles, with some losses of course?

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clammy

experiences with ref ground coil

I have heard alot about ground souce heat pumps with water loops but has any one done the direct buried ref regerant line systems?I had heard about them a few years ago and was asked to help in installingone but was to busy and the job was a good drive away.Supposely they drilled vertical angled bore holes and set refregerant lines into them and fill with a slurry mix to back fill and tied set of these together to a distrubution system to a tube and shell evap .The refregerant side of it was dual compressors with resevsing valves the system was used for heating and cooling some radiant and some FHA i don't know if they where using it for domestic water .My buddy who did the job had said all went well and the HO was very happy with the results but i'll have to ask him for more details.Peace and good luck clammy

Tom_35

ECR heat pumps

Clammy,

The ECR heat pumps are the type you described in your post. These units are incredibly efficient, and you don't need near the physical space for the copper heat exchanger.

Mike Dilling, who has also posted in this thread, has been installing this type of unit for years and is an expert on all phases of them. He can provide info that the factory guys haven't seen.

I'm in Arkansas and use the ECR units for space heating and cooling, radiant floor heating, heating domestic hot water with the de-superheater, and on demand domestic hot water.

Tom Atchley
Ft. Smith, AR

Mark_35

buried refrigerant pipe

I don't think too many contractors are taking that approach any more, though I have heard of it. HDPE is generally used - it is tough and pretty cheap compared to copper. You run a light glycol or methanol-water mix in it (about 20%) for freeze protection and run that directly to a water to air or water to water heat pump. YOu almost never hear of leaks in the ground loop heat exchanger if they are installed properly. Copper is pretty corrosion resistant, but I bet HDPE will out last it by a long shot.

Mark

Tom_35

geothermal heat pumps

Mark,

We started installing the glycol-based systems in the early 80's, and there is no doubt that it is the most popular system by far. Some of these units don't have the ability to do everything the ECR unit does, but some manufacturers do have options that will allow the user to do everything with one unit.

I don't have an objection to the glycol based units, but just feel that the refrigerant based unit offers more cutting edge technology, along with actual higher field efficiency.

I understand what you are saying about the copper longevity, but I've seen copper water lines that have been in the grounds for over 50 years and they are still in good shape. We started with polybutylene piping on our first installs, and later switched to polyethylene---both of these used socket fusion.

Tom Atchley

Brent_2

heat pump

What program are you using to calculate the annual costs for an air to air heat pump? I haven't found one that does a good job. Defrost cycles are a big deal in real world energy usage but I've been told that no program does even a reasonable job in estimating that cost. Depending on your climate the defrost cycle could be minimal or significant.

Brent

Brent_2

If you have your local energy costs it is not hard to figure out what the costs are to make a million btu's with oil, propane, nat gas, electric, etc. It might be interesting for you to do that. As mentioned, heat pumps have a COP that can be used.
Most electric companies (at least in northern climates) are summer peaking. That means that they have their peak demand in the summer and they have to build their plants and transmission lines to meet this demand. Of course the reason for this high demand is air conditioning. The rest of the year their infrastructure is below capacity meaning if they had more demand they could sell more electric.
In the winter time most people use gas, oil, or propane to heat their buildings. The electric companies would like more people to use heat pumps to heat their houses because that would even out the demand.

Brent

Josh_10

Brent I haven't either. I have had to do those by hand. What a pain! I did however plug the #'s for my local climate into a spreadsheet.

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