Two-pipe steam work pictures

John S.

of an old Webster system I've been working on...

A lot of dry returns were pitched improperly simply due to the age of the building (as you can plainly see in gravity_age.jpg). Most of them I was able to get a decent pitch by shortening vertical runouts.

Some dry return pitches were just beyond repitching, so I piped in a couple of drips in one particularly bad area. (newdrips.jpg). I realized later that I should have piped it with 1 - 1 1/4", therefore I added another 3/4" line to the lowest points. You'll also see that I didn't want to deal with tapping into the 2 1/2" wet return (for lack of tools to due so) but the drips enter below the water line and there's no steam entering them.

I also repitched all the rads in the vacancies and am eventually going to do the occupied apts. as well.

All this work is paying off, however, it actually made more changes necessary (different main venting, etc.)

Beware changing traps in steam to dry return crossovers! What happenend with this system (which I couldn't have figured out without Gerry Gill & Steve Pajek's vent data) is that the crossover traps had very large orifices in comparison to the same looking rad traps. Come to find out that Barnes and Jones replacements vented much more air, therefore the ratio of venting at the end of the mains compared with that of the radiators was greatly changed (first radiators were hot way before steam got to the end of the mains). Last Saturday, I added a Hoffman 75 to each of those subm-mains and Wa-La (how do you spell wa-la?) the system is running pretty comfortable throughout the building. Much more even.

Thanks to all on the wall for your help, and especially Gerry and Steve for developing the <a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-138">great tool</a> for balancing these old systems. I wouldn't have figured this one out nearly as fast without it! It should be in every steam contractors bag o tricks!

John S.

to help get an idea of what was going on...

I drew a rough schematic of the building's steam piping.

gerry gill

hey, your part of the chart too!

glad its helping out some..hows those crossover mains?

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gerry gill

which webster vent traps

are those? any numbers? do they have unions all around where one can be removed for testing?

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John S.

Hi Gerry,

Glad to be able to contribute even if just a little!

All appears to be well. I will post pics of my vent additions on the end of the mains, but again... it didn't really make sense until looking at the trap data you guys developed. Then it made perfect sense.

Now I'm going to start thinking about the dozen or two (out of 192 total traps) Hoffman 17cs that are unstrategically placed throughout the building. What dogs!

John S.

Webster Vent Traps

I could probably remove one for testing. I know they probably haven't been touched in years. You might be thinking of a thermostatic trap, however, these are more of a huge inverted bucket trap. A picture follows.

Right now they would vent as much as the main vents that I've attached to them. I think I read once that a Webster vacuum vent would have originally been installed on them.

gerry gill

thats the puppy

i had in mind..ran into one of these earlier this year and tested it..it was a model 40-15 and vented just slightly better than a gorton #2 before attaching something to it..but they had alot of different ones..

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Steamhead (in transit)

John, if you want to increase the venting capacity

on that Webster Vent Trap, remove the plug on the upper left and screw a 1/2-inch pipe nipple in it. Install your vents on this pipe. There's only so much air you can get thru the main venting port on that vent trap, and removing the plug is the way around that.

That plug, and the one below it, were there so the installer could put a sight glass on the trap if desired. But the upper tapping works great for vents.

Bob W._3

"Last Saturday, I added a Hoffman 75 to each of those subm-mains and Wa-La (how do you spell wa-la?)..." I think its spelled Voila, with some sort of an accent mark that I don't know how to type.

John S.

I'd be happy to dismantle it, Gerry...

However, I'm not so sure I could cover the shipping on it. Might have to take out a second mortgage!

I don't believe they've really acted as originally intended. The waterline never really moves much in this system (low-low pressure). Just acts as a vent.

John S.

Steamhead...

Thanks for the tip!

I'm still playing a little bit with the venting on those dry returns. It seems that the more I vent them the more uneven the distribution is. (That was before my work stated above) I have a feeling it's due to a few bad traps, but I'm not sure. I might go back and try to add more vents come heating season (colder weather). Your thoughts are certainly appreciated!

I had thought about (just for kicks) temporarily replacing the cover on one of those with plexiglass.

gerry gill

Maybe in spring

i'll have to load up the flowmeters and make a road trip..steve tells me detroits not far..i should know this but i don't..just sounds far..

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John S.

keep it in mind..

Gerry. That'd be great! I'll buy you guys lunch and show you around town as much as possible. See if I can line up a few boiler rooms to visit!