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Air in my hydronic system. Help!

T. J.
Member Posts: 47
I just moved into a modest 1917 colonial and I have a hydronic system with a fairly new gas fired hot water boiler. My issue started with no heat in my upper bathroom. It was determined that I have an air pocket on the RETURN side of the baseboard heater preventing an easy debubbling using it's bleed valve.
However, the local reputable shop said my boiler plumbing is not routed correctly and will prevent them from properly bleeding the system. In a nutshell: The city water-side pressure control valve is old and may not work if they try to turn up the pressure to force the air out, but even if they can, I have no automatic bleed on the supply-side of the boiler to remove the air once it enters the boiler (which I don't understand because there is a manual bleed valve on the return line just before it enters the circulating pump to the boiler). In addition, they state, I have no back-flow valve on the city water make-up.
The total cost? $1,300. He wants to install a new pressure control valve, pressure relief valve, and back-flow valve on the city water side, then install an automatic "Microbubble" bleed valve on the boiler supply side, and finally when everything is drained, install a bleed valve on the return line for the upper bathroom just before it merges with the main return header in the basement to make sure that line in particular gets bled.
That's a lot of money for me (and anyone, I guess) and granted, while this is probably the best down-town way to get the job done, I'm not sure if there are less expensive ways that will do the job just as good for almost as long and at a fraction of the price. Does anyone have advice?
Thanks.
However, the local reputable shop said my boiler plumbing is not routed correctly and will prevent them from properly bleeding the system. In a nutshell: The city water-side pressure control valve is old and may not work if they try to turn up the pressure to force the air out, but even if they can, I have no automatic bleed on the supply-side of the boiler to remove the air once it enters the boiler (which I don't understand because there is a manual bleed valve on the return line just before it enters the circulating pump to the boiler). In addition, they state, I have no back-flow valve on the city water make-up.
The total cost? $1,300. He wants to install a new pressure control valve, pressure relief valve, and back-flow valve on the city water side, then install an automatic "Microbubble" bleed valve on the boiler supply side, and finally when everything is drained, install a bleed valve on the return line for the upper bathroom just before it merges with the main return header in the basement to make sure that line in particular gets bled.
That's a lot of money for me (and anyone, I guess) and granted, while this is probably the best down-town way to get the job done, I'm not sure if there are less expensive ways that will do the job just as good for almost as long and at a fraction of the price. Does anyone have advice?
Thanks.
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Comments
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If your contractor looked at your system and came away with a proper fix, and will warranty the install, then why not get it fixed properly?
Not seeing your feeder, but having seen many others in poor condition that I would not dream of touching for fear of breaking it, I would believe him. When replacing the feeder and working on the line connected to the domestic water, we are required to install backflow prevention to bring the install up to code in that area.
Repairing the near boiler piping to make servicing easier, and make bleeding faster is a great idea. Not every boiler is installed in "summertime" conditions. Some times, they are installed in the dead of winter under circumstances where speed becomes more important than servicability.
Taking the time to fix this now, before the real cold weather sets in, would be smart.
If it were me, I'd have him repipe the boiler so the circulator (s) are on the supply side. This would lessen your chances of getting any more air in the system.
If you are leery about the price, it seems low to me. If you are in my area (Westchester County, NY), I would be happy to come and look at it for you, so you can get a second opinion. My rates are fair.0 -
what he is suggesting sounds reasonable
from what you have stated and in our market, the twin cities, I would say that is a fair price. Never hurts to get a second opinion. It may cost a little though, most of us don't work for free0 -
Thanks for all the helpful replies
Just to explain my position a bit better, this is my first house, my first heating system, and the first time I called a service tech. And I just called the name on the sticker on the boiler not knowing their reputation. Finally, I thought I was dealing with a simple problem, i.e., air in one branch of my system. So, naturally, I was skeptical of the price and work to be done, mostly out of my own ignorance.
But from what I heard here, the price sounds resonable and the work seems just. The only issue is the $1,300 did not include moving the pump to the supply-side which, I'm sure, will raise the price even higher than I was expected to pay.
But, I am indeed going to get a second opinion from a professional listed on this (invaluable) website located here in SE Michigan (I'm orignially from the Long Island area where hydronic heating systems are more prevalent).0 -
do it and be done with it.
i live in the North Pole and it sounds like a sparco vent and backflow with new valve that you Can control sounds like a sane solution to your problem, a new expansion tank and pumping away with an i series S or i series R would round out the stradgey a bit further and likely save you a dollar in the long run. did i mention a by pass or outside reset with an inside sensor and primary secondary piping? may as well get it done. then if the boiler goes T;s up everything will be there for the new modulating condensing boiler.*~/:) you could have them lash up an injection loop that would work too:)oo VS series taco .....
it may sound like a spendy way buh as the Chinese say expensive is expensive buh Cheap, Cheap is not cheap.
an inexpensive way around would be to drain down the boiler,cut in two purge ( boiler drain valves gate the boiler pump and purge everything and then the boiler.yet...some time when you least expect it youd be doing it again...0 -
time of the season
$1300 seems high to anyone so don't feel bad about that. But your comfort is at what is at stake. If you have a bathroom that doesn't heat or doesn't heat properly can you imagine 10 years of cold winters in that bathroom. Just think roughly 5 months of a year with a frigid nasty bathroom. You lose money because you take longer showers because you dread leaving the calm hot water to go enter the frigid unheated room. Ouch.
Plus if your plumbing is on an outside wall and it gets bad you might have problems with your plumbing freezing up.
Another option you have to save money is if the pump is in the return and it is too costly to move it to the supply move the expansion point(where the boiler feeds) on the suction side of the pump on the return side. That is an exceptable option.
How old is the boiler. Are you on Natural Gas or Propane or worse yet Fuel Oil (only because of cost issues.)
You might have options (and/or rebates) available from you local utility especially if you are switching fuels.
If the contractor warranties his work, ask for references from other customers that has a hydronic system. Call them and ask them if they thought the work done was acceptable, proffessional, and corrected the problem. Ask for at leat 3 and call them. If everything checks out than "invest" your money in your system and enjoy your home.
Good Luck,
Justin
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The engineer in me likes the idea of things working as intended
I'm not sure I follow you regarding moving the 'expansion' point. Do you mean the expansion tank that is currently branching off the supply-side riser eminating from the boiler?
The boiler is a fairly new gas fired New Yorker CG-A-40.0 -
Is this what you have
Is the basic system the one you have on the left.
Do you see what I mean?
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Gotcha!
Put the expansion tank branch off the suction-side of the pump, huh? That helps with air getting trapped in the system when the pump is on the return line? Interesting. I just assumed that the expansion tank should be closest to the highest point of pressure (i.e., supply side of the pump or exit of the boiler).
If you have MS Visio, I included a schematic of my system's set-up and also what the first service tech proposed (1 zip file with 2 attachments).0
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