peerless vs Munchkin

Dick Charland

As Mark pointed out below, even atmospheric equipment should be serviced on a regular basis.In too many cases (practically all) this is never done. Add to that, the fact that most gas equipment is never set up properly when installed (minimal gas pressure adjustment etc.) and the gas industry/customers have had a free ride for years. The clean/efficient gas advertising has been one big "smoke" and mirrors promotion. Given lack of setup/maintenance the level of inefficient operation is scandalous. Your comment that a "simple unintelligent....would result in a more cost effective solution." reflects what you and the industry have never confronted, most of that equipment is operating at dreadful levels of inefficiency. Guess what, it hasn't been a free ride for you the customer.

Along comes technology designed to operate at a higher level resulting in significant efficiency and the complaint becomes the cost of regular service. There is the flaw in the plan, what we will see is the historic lack of service that we've seen in the past with atmospheric equipment. After all, it's gas it doesn' need regular maintenance. It will be interesting to see this condensing equipment after 3-4-5 years of operation with no regular maintenance. Unfortunately, it will end up being the universal piece of you know what. Heaven forbid, it is difficult enough to have "experienced/trained" personnel work on this equipment let alone leave it to the homeowner.

The investment in regular service/maintenance is the assurance of continued efficient operation as opposed to the level of inefficiency we've accepted in the past.

RLYable Handyguy

Peerless vs Munchkin

Narrowing down my options for Radiant Heat for a 920sqft home... In central New York Binghamton area.
BTU load is calculated to be around 34,500 to 36,000 plus That of a indirect tank...
Does anyone have preferences between A Peerless Pinnacle and a Munchkin 80m Propane fueled Boiler? good points and bad points appreciated.
Thanks
Russ

Constantin

Depends on the installer...

... I, as a mere homeowner, would vote for the Munchkin based solely on their integrated Vision control package, which I would install also. However, if your installer has had better support in your area from Peerless than HTP, by all means go the Peerless route but upgrade it to take full advantage of all the features that the boiler can offer.

As a side note, since the T50 can modulate up to 80kBTU/hr for an indirect, why buy anything bigger?

Cliff Brady

Peerless Pavilion 410 Control

Peerless now has a nice 0-5 volt modulating control called the Pavillion 410 that looks like a slightly stipped down Tekmar 270. The 410 is just like a 270 without inputs for an optional indoor sensor and 0-5 volt control instead of 0-10 volt. It controls DHW setpoint and heating with a linear outdoor reset curve like the Munchkin Vision One rather than the sophisticated Tekmar (270 et al) style Characterized Heating Curves based on the type of terminal heating unit entered.

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/home/_images/user/products/IOM_Pavilion_Control_410.pdf
http://www.peerlessboilers.com/home/_images/user/products/IOM_pinnacle_man_p125.pdf
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/d270.pdf
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/d263.pdf

Supply House Rick

The wise choice would be...

Buderus GB142/24 Period! No Call Backs, comes with prefabricated Primary/Secondary Manifold with system pump (others do not) Trouble free installation. Absolutely the best customer and technical service on the planet! The others cannot make these claims.
Buderus, often imitated, never duplicated... Oh, by the way I also sell Peerless

Chuckles_4

How can one get a real Tekmar, ie. the 270, to work with the Peerless or Munchkin?

Linear reset curves make it hard to run the boiler at the lowest possible temperatures.

[PS For the OP: the Peerless Pinnancle and the Munchkin are the same boiler with differnt controls.]

Constantin

Ummm... allow me to quibble.

Rick,

Aren't you laying it on a bit thick? There are other great boiler brands out there besides Buderus. You may not represent them but that doesn't make them inferior to Buderus. My Vitola can do things that similarly-seized Buderus boilers can only dream of, yet I would refrain from labeling every other brand as inferior, even if Viessmann offers great support, great heating solutions, etc.

There is the perfect boiler for almost every heating problem out there. Getting too hooked up on brand names is a disservice to the professionals who install and maintain these appliances. On the other hand, I am happy that representing Buderus has been a very positive experience for you.

Chuck Shaw_4

The Peerless and the

Munchkin, are both made in the same factory, by Heat Transfer Products.

The differances are the gas valve, and the control capabilities. Also, all Peerless boilers are ASME rated, you can choose to purchase the Munchkin with or without the ASME stamp, it depends on codes in your area if it is needed or not.

Chuckles, we have an add on control, that will interface with many Tekmar controls, you may wish to double check with Tekmar, to make sure the control you wish to use is compatable.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to call the factory,

Chuck Shaw
Technical Support Department
Heat Transfer Products

marc

ASME listing

Why does Munchkin have 2 types of appliances?? is it a boiler?? the same goes for the Buderus "heater" i am assuming that in order to obtain a munchkin with the "H" stamp you have to pay more $?? At least you can order a Munchkin with the H stamp. Not sure about the GB boiler yet?? any news on the H stamp for the GB??? marc

Scott Gregg

Same thing

The Pinnacle and Munchkin are the SAME boiler.

Aside from the couple of differences pointed out above, Peerless includes the first year LABOR along with their warranty. To many, that alone is worth any cost difference between ASME and non ASME models.

Rick of N&S Supply of Catskill

Allow me to respond...

Being a mere homeowner, you can't imagine the problems and solutions I have encountered in 26 years in this business in the field, management and sales. You can Google with the best of them and you respond to almost every post on the wall. Can you google the call backs we had with Pinnacle over the past couple of years? Can you google how many phone calls or visits to the jobsite? How I put my trust and reputation on the line when I sold them? ZERO call backs with Buderus out of the hundreds we have sold in the past 2 years. So if I come in a little strong it's because I absolutely know what I am talking about from every angle, not just from stuff I read online. Call Buderus and ask them about their dedication to quality and customer satisfaction, take a tour whatever. I have sold quite a few lines of boilers and speaking from experience, Buderus can't be beat...

RS_2

Homeowner serviceable modulating boiler

What about annual service on the Buderus? They want to have a pro service it every year! That certainly kills the payback! For example, a $150 service call on a $2,000 fuel bill is about 8% loss of efficiency just on the fuel. Factoring in the increased boiler and installation cost and so much for high efficiency saving you lots of money. A simple unintelligent cast iron boiler which is not as efficient and costs half the price would result in a more cost effective solution. Does anyone know of a homeowner serviceable modulating boiler? It looks like the new ECR/Dunkirk/Utica 95M may fit this bill but is there anything similar with a track record? Thanks.

[Deleted User]

Technically speaking...

even atmospheric boilers are supposed to be serviced annually by a qualified technician. The fact that no one ever does doesn't make it OK.

The reason for using a qualified technician is because they come equipped with instrumentation that can tell wether your applianc is properly adjusted or not. Looking at a flame will not tell you if carbon monoxide is present or not, hence the need for qualification,

There is a difference between efficient and cheap. You are apparently looking for cheap...

Efficiency comes with a price and a requirement for service. Get used to it. It WILL become a standard in the near future.

ME

vhlaundry

Munchkin

Chuck Shaw,
What is the difference between a regular Munchkin and Munchkin VWH. Is the Hamilton Evo a Munchkin VWH?
Thanks

Chuck Shaw_4

A regular Munchkin is

designed for space heating. A VWH is designed to work with a storage tank to make domestic hot water. They have some different components and a different ASME number. Not to mention the different program in the software. The VWH also has a 25% thicker coil wall. Visually, the main differance is the color of the cover. A VWH has a red cover, and the "M" series has a silver cover.

Hope this helps,

Chuck

Rodney Summers

Is it the same as a Hamilto Evo?

Chuck Shaw_4

we make the EVO for Hamilton

I am not sure what their specifications are. Call Hamilton and ask them, they would be the best source of information on what they specified.

Chuck