Energy Pigs

GMcD

Recently completed office occupancy, one thermostat every three offices. I get calls about two areas being too cold in their offices, I check the controls, and the local room thermostats are on a setpoint of 22C, and the indicated actual room temperature is 25.5C based on the computer graphics!! OK, so why are these folks cold?

Site review shows one guy who has put a halogen lamp directly under the wall thermostat, and another office where another person has put a radiant heater on the floor under the thermostat. They refuse to move the heating elements "because the heating system doesn't work and I want it warmer in my office". Ummm, if the thermostat is reading 25C, then the heating won't come on.....

Simply Rad_2

Energy Pigs

I have a couple who I am really trying to convince to be alittle more energy conscience. They just do not get it when it comes to common sense so I am going to try the fact aproach. They have a goethermal radiant system so they are limited on the seasonal output. I designed the system for 70 degrees at -20 design. I thought that was adequate until I visit the home and notice that the tropics have moved to the mountains of colorado. The home was being heated to 78 degrees! THen I walk out to the garage were the man door and garage doors are open. The icing on cake is when the clients are laughing telling me their two cute little dogs have figured out how to open the doors when they are gone hahahahahahahahahahaha!

I am trying to figure out a strategic way to explain to them that there geo system is a limited supply and there life systems will exceed it. I am trying to educate them first, by gathering some information. I am first going to show them the industry standard design of temperature of 65 degrees. I am looking for some comparision numbers. I have seen for every 1 degree thermostat rise there is an 3% rise in energy cost. Any thoughts. Then I am going to prove to them that they can freeze their loop field by comsuming to much energy. Finally they must do something about the dogs it happens alot Maybe they should leave some books out so the dogs can learn how to read instead of open doors. There I vented and it fells good.
Thanks Jeffrey

John S.

Recently had a tenant move..

from my building. Last year, I got a call, Friday at 4:30pm ..."apt.B2 says it really cold in her apartment" So, I get out of my car, and take a thermometer up to B2. She answers the door barefoot, wairing sweats and a very thin half-shirt. I set the thermomter up on her dining room table and wait about ten minutes. I say: "Well, it's 70deg in here" She says "Can't you make it 80?" Some people just don't get it.

I've come to the conclusion that generally, you won't change people who are close-minded. It is unfortunate. Kudos for your efforts, though. Don't give up the fight!!

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Mad Dog_2

Because of situations like yours

that we have been in, I always go out of my way to enquire about the comfort expectations of the homeowners: "How hot DO you expect it to be in room A?.....how long ARE your average showers?...do you throw in a load of wash and get the diswasher going before you fill that jacuzzi?" We did a baseboard job in a basement a few years ago. Used my Slant Fin program...added a little extra baseboard just to be sure......then the winter came: "My wife's freezing down there." After several phone calls and a trip there I found out the truth. His wife was from Columbia and liked the room about 80! He wanted us to install more baseboard on the cuff. I politely explained that the industry standard was to heat a room to roughly 70 degrees on the coldest days of the year...NOT 80. He knew I was right but he still wanted us to add more for free. We refused. But after that, I usually design for a 75 degree room temp when sizing rads. People rarely complain when itys toasty...always when its cold. Those folks need a gentle lesson in energy conservation for their own financial well-being...maybe then they will get it. Mad Dog

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Steamhead (in transit)

Let me guess

two Hummers in the garage?

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S Ebels

You can't change 'em

They have to decide to change themselves. I'd just sit down with them and explain the parameters that the system was designed to operate within. Let them make the decision as to what to do about it. Use it as an opprtunity to sell them a boiler for augmentation of the GSHP when the need arises, which will almost certainly happen the way it sounds.

ALH_4

$$

Apparently heating bills are not yet a concern for those people. It's unfortunate that the people who can most easily afford to save energy or install equipment to take advantage of alternative energy are often the least likely to do so. Discounts for using large quantities of electricity are really irresponsible to the rest of us who conserve.

Why should the responsible people subsidize the irresponsible? Though that seems to be the way it frequently goes.

-Andrew

Mike T., Swampeast MO

You're just described the major problem with free-market capitalism. In order to keep costs low and profit reasonable, demand must be as high as possible. When it comes to energy, the frugal do indeed subsidize the wasteful.

Energy suppliers are loving the current situation where they can claim "supply difficulties" justify inflated prices.

Don't get your dander up thinking I'm a socialist--I'm FAR from it, but;

There are times when government, ponderous and inefficient though it may be, must step in to limit free market capitalism. I most honestly suspect that energy producers, energy suppliers and health care providers all fully realize that some big changes in the role of government in their industries are inevitable and until such happens they are enjoying (even creating) inflated profits.

If the people of this great nation demand and commit to the idea of true alternatives to fossil fuels, I have ZERO doubt that the goal can be accomplished within a reasonable amount of time. In the meantime, we should demand and commit to "modified" free markets that reward conservation and penalize wastefulness.

ALH_4

Also

There is the fact that the most wasteful equipment is generally the least expensive. Electric water heaters? Low initial investment. Solar domestic hot water heating systems? High initial investment.

So we have energy programs that buy more energy for those who cannot afford to heat their leaky inefficient older homes. Perhaps it would be better to install some insulation instead of buying more fuel.

I agree that energy producers have no incentive to reduce consumption. Consumers also have little incentive to reduce their personal consumption while energy prices are low.

Database of State Incentives for Renewable Energy

I feel it is the responsibility of every heating contractor and designer to educate their customers on the benefits of and incentives for alternative energy. It starts with us. Most homeowners have only vague knowledge of alternative energy sources. When talking about solar, most think of photovoltaic systems only. Let's cover Phoenix, Vegas, etc. with SDHW systems. ;-)

-Andrew

John S.

"You know, the only trouble with capitalism is capitalists. They're too damn greedy."

-Herbert Hoover

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Dean_7

Energy

Not everyone is an energy pig and not everyone is comfortable at 68 or 70 degrees. We have flourescent lights in every fixture in the house. We have replaced all of our old appliances with the most energy efficient ones we could find. We have restored a steam heating system to it's original working condition with a corrosponding decrease in natural gas usage of 50% (tracked over the last 19 months). We have replaced all of the old leaky windows and doors with new ones. We have insulated every nook and cranny we could find. Our utility bills are the lowest they have ever been. Also in the driveway are two 4 cylinder cars that get 48 miles to the gallon on average. After all the time, effort, money, and sweat equity my wife and I have put into our home we are going to be comfortable inside it. Therefore our thermostat is set at 73 degrees.

Fred Harwood

Sunday Morning Energy Perspective

Black gold got its name because Mr. Drake's first barrel of Pensylvania oil sold for $20, then one ounce of gold. Friday, gold traded for $496 an ounce, while West Texas Intermediate oil went for about $57 a barrel, and Saudi Arabia's basket of crudes went for just under $50 a barrel, about an $8 discount to WTI. Energy today is cheap, and each year the US uses fewer BTU per dollar of GDP, about 60% less than in 1973.

Capitalism is the reason that oil costs just $57 a barrel instead of $496. Government is the reason that your dollar buys less every year. Think about it.

If you want to set your thermostat at 75 and open the doors and the windows, it's your perogative provided that it's also your money. The best way to get a tenant to use less of your energy money is to find a way to charge them for their energy use preferences.

Low of 7.5F in southwestern Mass yesterday morning. My doors and windows were shut tight.

[Deleted User]

Cover your butt with paper...

because if and when their loop field turns into a giant ice ball, guess who's head is going to be on the proverbial chopping block.

THey don't have to sign off on anything. THey just have to be notified, and you need proof that the message has been delivered, via return receipt requested USPO style.

Having to sign for something being delivered to you has some kind of important conotation to it, regardless of how trivial the message may be.

Be polite, courteous and helpful. If they decide they want to freeze the earth, then so be it. And when it comes time to have to install a condensing boiler for their mistake, its at THEIR cost, not YOURS.

You can tell people how to keep from hurting themselve, but you can't keep them from doing it to themselves, and then suing you for the privelidge...

'Tis a litiguous society in which we live...

Cover your butt in paper.

ME

ALH_4

Energy Use

You have just defined "responsible energy usage". If only everyone was as responsible, our country could collectively reduce our consumption by a very large percentage. I hope the federal tax incentives for solar help install thousands of solar domestic hot water systems next year.

On the flip-side are the people who have money to burn. Those people are immigrating by the thousands to Montana, where we are located. At times the blatant waste of fuel is a little alarming, particularly when it comes to snow melting systems in resort areas. Locally, we have few contractors encouraging outdoor reset, let alone condensing boilers. In my opinion, only condensing boilers should be used for significant snowmelt areas. If the owner can afford to buy that much fuel, he/she can afford a high efficiency boiler.

Simply Rad is dealing the very real issue of being able to deliver the comfort demanded by his customers, while at the same time they (and their dogs) increase their heat load dramatically for no good reason. Reducing heat loss is the best way to reduce fuel consumption, and I wish there were more contractors/designers out there that thought that way.

-Andrew