rumbling pipes hydronic heating

PatchoguePhil_2

Here's your pics made clickable

<A href=http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2800.jpg target="_new">pic1</A> 
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pic7</A>

Michael Wildt

Noisy pipes in hydronic heating system

Hi,

My heating system is forced hot water, and appears to be original (from the 'birth' of the house, 1961). The boiler is a Burnham Holiday, and there is 2 zones.

Problem is noisy pipes. Almost a rumble from time to time. My first guess is that there was air in the system, but bleeding the upstairs radiators (zone A) only gave water. Downstairs (zone there is no option to bleed the radiators. I've tried to run the zones separatly and it tends to be mostly in the zone B, but it can also occur in zone A.

There is an expansion tank on the system and both circulation pumps appears to pull the water through the pipes (my own guess). I'm also guessing the expansion tank is on the output side of the boiler.

How do I fix this problem of rumbling pipes ?

Thanks,
Michael

Note: I have no idea of the efficiency of the Burnham boiler nor it's model number, so if you know I'd be interested. I tried the Burnham webpage and info with no luck.

Timco

Did the problems just appear or have they always done this? Pipes may have come unstrapped or low pressure could be a cause. Air usually sounds like rushing water. Model number is inside the access door usually. Could use mod # and aquastat temperature and system pressure.

T

Michael Wildt

Hi Tim,

Thanks for replying. The house is new to me so I cannot say when this started. The sound is not really like rushing water, but more like pipes shaking. It runs fine for a bit then rumble then fine then rumble. The interval has not been measured but I sure can do. If there was water in the pipes, constant, then I thought it would be odd for a rumble to suddenly occur, why I thought of trapped air.

The boiler is pretty big so access door ? I don't really see one. On the front, low, is the burner coils 5 of them. There is a metal flap that have wing nuts, about 3" high and 1.5' long. Guess it'll only go into the burner.

The temp is, right now, 180 and the pressure 24 (guessing PSI).

Michael

Michael H

I would suspect that you have an older series 100 circulator, if this is the case I would check the impeller, as well as the mtr bushings and alignment.

Michael Wildt

Hi Michael,

Thanks for replying.

The circulator is TACO 007-F3 and 007-F4. The F3 appears to have a handwritten date on it 1/13/88.

I forgot to add to the earlier post that the boiler is gas.

Thanks,
Michael

Albert Huntermark

Periodic pipe rumbling

My question for you is does the rumbling occur after the system is heated up or the boiler firing for a while? Also, have you noticed any water dripping from the relief valve? You mentioned that you had 24psi at 180F. If you watch your system for a while, it could be creeping up to or near 30psi causing the relief valve to sporadically “spit” or even discharge fully. The rumbling may be a result of the valve chattering or cold water later replenishing the discharged water as the system is cooling down. Your expansion tank may be flooded, or slightly flooded and the water has no where to expand as it is being heated. Ironically, I solved a similar problem yesterday! So this is fresh on my mind! A good friend and fellow plumber recently replaced his boiler, (one that replaced a gravity one about 30-years prior!) He is a very good tradesman as far as plumbing goes, but isn’t that familiar with hydronic heating. He did do a very neat installation and piping job though. His system is on a night setback t-stat. For the last two weeks (during a cold spell in our area) every morning after he left for work, his wife noticed a slight rumbling sound about the same time each day. He kept telling her it was the “newness” of the system! After a while she quit buying it, smart woman! So, he asked me what I thought could be causing the noise. After looking at his nice piping project, I had an idea right away. His system consisted of 2” and 1-1/2” steel trunk lines and large cast iron radiators. Still sitting in the corner of the basement was a huge dismantled expansion tank that he is going to take up to his camp to store water for commode flushing! Anyway, replacing the tank on the system was a neatly installed air-pressurized type expansion tank the size of a gallon milk jug! Without any calculations, I knew that it was too small. His rational was that it looked neater and anyway it was under pressure so it didn’t have to be very big! We fired up the system, after it ran about twenty minutes, the relief valve began to vibrate slightly, make the noise and stop. We then watched the pressure gauge that was slowly creeping up to 30psi, and would slightly discharge and rumble as it did so (his wife ran down the steps to see if we heard the noise!) It seemed to keep happening in 30-minute intervals. In the interim, he told me that he couldn’t get any heat from a radiator in the guest room at the end of the house. We bled a ton of air until we got hot water there. You talk about rumbling noises (his wife ran up the steps to bring that to our attention as well!) The air in this radiator was apparently supplementing the small tank, so now the relief valve discharged more frequently. I sized up his system, did the proper calculations and low and behold he needed a pressurized tank two sizes larger than the one he installed. Fortunately, it was an easy fix as he installed a ton of valves! So, we didn’t need to drain the whole system. We installed the new tank and now the system purrs! Long winded story! By the way, he neatly piped the relief valve discharge into a floor drain, so he didn’t notice it discharging. So, I would check your system pressure and relief valve after it is firing for a while. If it gets to 30psi or close to it check the expansion tank. You may need to drain it. Good luck. My wife is calling me to help with the turkey! Happy Thanksgiving all!

Michael Wildt

Hi Amhwrite,

Thanks for replying and Happy T day to you all!.

The system makes the noise when running. Doesn't matter if the boiler just turned off or not.

I think you might be on to something. The 'valve rattle' was what got me back into the furnace room. I took a 'mechanical stethescope' (piece of wood) and put it on the different pipes, one my one, and to my ear. The one that rattled was the feed pipe to the basement zone (zone B in the earlier post). Looking closer to the piping it appears to be from a device that might be a valve of some sort. I'm guessing pressure controlled ? Of course I could be wrong, here, but it does sound like a steel ball ratteling in a pipe, guessing the spring is causing the cycling due to pressure changes ?

I gathered a few pictures of the system as well as some other measurements. Low and behold there was a MassSave inspection note as well. Turns out the boiler was inspected in '96 and should have an efficiency rate of ~77%. Not ideal these days considering the cost of gas.

Pictures;

http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2800.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2801.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2802.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2804.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2805.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2806.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2807.jpg

The pressure on the expansion tank was 26 PSI so roughly the same as the boiler gauge (depends on the accuracy of that gauge). The question then is how do I resolve this ?
I have no idea of the age of the expansion tank, but the relieve valve on top of it appears to be new.

Thanks,
Michael

Albert Huntermark

Is there ever any water on the floor?

> Hi Amhwrite,

>

> Thanks for replying and Happy T

> day to you all!.

>

> The system makes the noise

> when running. Doesn't matter if the boiler just

> turned off or not.

>

> I think you might be on to

> something. The 'valve rattle' was what got me

> back into the furnace room. I took a 'mechanical

> stethescope' (piece of wood) and put it on the

> different pipes, one my one, and to my ear. The

> one that rattled was the feed pipe to the

> basement zone (zone B in the earlier post).

> Looking closer to the piping it appears to be

> from a device that might be a valve of some sort.

> I'm guessing pressure controlled ? Of course I

> could be wrong, here, but it does sound like a

> steel ball ratteling in a pipe, guessing the

> spring is causing the cycling due to pressure

> changes ?

>

> I gathered a few pictures of the

> system as well as some other measurements. Low

> and behold there was a MassSave inspection note

> as well. Turns out the boiler was inspected in

> '96 and should have an efficiency rate of ~77%.

> Not ideal these days considering the cost of

> gas.

>

> Pictures;

>

> http://home.comcast.net/~mewi

> ldt/20051124_20D_2800.jpg http://home.comcast.net

> /~mewildt/20051124_20D_2801.jpg http://home.comca

> st.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2802.jpg http://home

> .comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2804.jpg http:

> //home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2805.jpg

> http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20D_2806

> .jpg http://home.comcast.net/~mewildt/20051124_20

> D_2807.jpg

>

> The pressure on the expansion tank

> was 26 PSI so roughly the same as the boiler

> gauge (depends on the accuracy of that gauge).

> The question then is how do I resolve this ? I

> have no idea of the age of the expansion tank,

> but the relieve valve on top of it appears to be

> new.

>

> Thanks, Michael

Albert Huntermark

Is there ever any water on the floor?

Is there ever any water on the floor? Especially on the right side, facing your boiler. In picture #1 that was made clickable by PatchoguePhil the floor appears to be stained in the area under the relief valve. The relief valve in your case is the the one on the side with the open black steel pipe hanging from it, above the boiler drain. Does any water ever discharge from this pipe onto the floor? This will happen if the pressure is getting too high in the system. The other picture showing the guage leads me to believe that it could be. You are getting awful close to 30psi, when the boiler reaches 180F, further, your gauge may not be accurate. The relief will discharge at 30psi. As far as the pressure reading that you took off the red expansion tank, that must be taken with the system cold and the system pressure dropped to zero. This give a pressure reading of the tank diaphram pushing against your system water when your system is running. It is possible that there is a problem with the tank, if the relief valve is discharging.

Michael Wildt

Hi,

There is only a couple of drops on the floor from the relief valve. Definitely not more than a drop or two so I don't think there is a problem at that place.
I'm more concerned about the other valve/device that sits just after the T, seen in picture 3 & 4. Do you know what that device is there for ?

I'll try to get the pressure measured on the expansion tank when cold, currently it's running.

Thanks,
Michael

Gary_17

flo-control valve

The valve in your picture is a flo-control valve. There is a wieght connected to a stem that sits on a seat to prevent heat migration. You can turn the stem up to lift it off the seat to drain the supply piping. The weight may have come off the stem or it might not be fully seated. Also to properly check the pressure in the expansion tank you must first drop the boiler presure to 0, otherwise you're just measuring the system pressure. The press. in the tank should be the same as the press. reducing valve(commonly called the feeder), which is usually factory set at 12 psi.

[Deleted User]

> Hi,

>

> My heating system is forced hot water, and

> appears to be original (from the 'birth' of the

> house, 1961). The boiler is a Burnham Holiday,

> and there is 2 zones.

>

> Problem is noisy pipes.

> Almost a rumble from time to time. My first guess

> is that there was air in the system, but bleeding

> the upstairs radiators (zone A) only gave water.

> Downstairs (zone there is no option to bleed

> the radiators. I've tried to run the zones

> separatly and it tends to be mostly in the zone

> B, but it can also occur in zone A.

>

> There is

> an expansion tank on the system and both

> circulation pumps appears to pull the water

> through the pipes (my own guess). I'm also

> guessing the expansion tank is on the output side

> of the boiler.

>

> How do I fix this problem of

> rumbling pipes ?

>

> Thanks, Michael

>

> Note: I

> have no idea of the efficiency of the Burnham

> boiler nor it's model number, so if you know I'd

> be interested. I tried the Burnham webpage and

> info with no luck.



From what you are saying it sounds like your flo-check is rattling.They will go bad from time to time and come apart on the inside.This problem can be quite annoying and frustrating.good luck.

Michael Wildt

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply.

Any chance you could comment on what the flo-check is there for ? I'm kind of a novice when it gets to hydronics ;-)

Is it to guarantee that the water can't flow back ?

I'll have it checked out by a professional.

Thanks,
Michael

Michael Wildt

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the reply. Hope you guys are getting some T today ;-) Lots of answers and suggestions on a holiday.

Hmm, interesting device. Sounds like the checking is best left for a professional. Wild guess here; besides from normal gravity flow causing this, would this cause the upstairs zone to get semi heated when only running the downstairs zone (that have the flo-control device) ? kind of sounds like it with your explanation.

I'll check the 'cold' pressure.

Many thanks,
Michael

Albert Huntermark

Shouldn't be any water dripping!

Michael, there shouldn't be any water coming out of the pressure relief valve, not even a "couple of drops”, whether there is a pressure issue or not. Further, if you are not having a pressure issue, the relief valve seat could be dirty or corroded requiring attention. Also, the pressure test of the diaphragm expansion (red, in your case!) tank must not only be done when the system is cold, but as stated by me and in a later response from fellow Wallie Gary, with zero pressure on the system side of the tank. At this point, as you stated in a response back to Gary, I agree that it would be wise to have a professional take a look at your system. If you are not familiar with servicing the tank, you could run into trouble. Please let us know what their findings were. Good luck! Amhwrite.

Michael Wildt

Hi,

I agree, there shouldn't be a leak. The temps are kind of low these few days, should warm up later next week. If so I'll get the cold pressure then.

Appreciate your assistance. This have given me more knowledge about the system and how it works.

Thanks,
Michael

Michael Wildt

Hi,

Just wanted to make an update on this problem you guys gladly helped out with. I finally had a plumber called in and this is/was the outcome.

Turned out that this guy actually knew a little bit about the house since he had put in a new water heather in the spring as well as checking the zone control system (where an electrician had to rewire the zone pumps).

So I explained the problem and of course (Murphy's Law) the problem was not present in that particular moment. He did some thinking and first tried to move the float in the flow control valve up and down. Didn't seem to alleviate the problem. Next we checked the pressure on the system as well as on the expantion tank. Not ideal and way too high as you guys pointed out as well. His guess was that too high a pressure would cause the 'float' rattle. Off he went to get a new expantion tank.

Got that one plugged in and the old one was actually more full with water than expected. Now the pressure on the boiler remains in a more reasonable area, less than the 28/29 PSI I saw. Actually when he drained some of the water off (before we replaced the tank) we checked the pressure on the tank and it was 0 psi. If I understand this correct it should have been 12 psi since the system wasn't loading the tank.

Waited then for a bit as the system warmed up and we didn't notice any float rattle. Fine we thought and he left. I had to run an errand as well so I dropped the temp on the thermostat (lower zone as well as upper zone). Bummer! Damn float rattled like no other, much worse than before now that it had been 'exercised a bit'. Turn the heat (lower zone only) back on and sure enough the rattle came back as before we replaced the expantion tank.

Called the guy back and we discussed the problem a bit. Several choices.
- replace the flow control that makes noise.
- redesign the piping so it's more neat and it'll remove the old piping from the hotwater tank hookup that isn't in use. It'll also remove the other flow control valve that sits inline from the boiler before it hits the expantion tank (wasn't in any picture). Then replace the troubled flow control as well. Add a different air vent for the expantion tank that would allow more air to escape. This would allow for easier boiler replacement when I got to that point.
- turn the stem on the valve up so it's taken out of the loop, remains open.

Since he was unable to come back today and I'm still considering getting a more efficient boiler (than 77% measured by MassSave in '96 and more recently 78% 12/08/05) I chose the last option for now since heat is needed anyway on both zones.

So the end conclusion is that it was the valve that was the problem as well as the 'too high' pressure. Latter probably just a problem to show its ugly head at a later time, so wasn't completely waste of time ;-)

While it could be awesome to clean up the piping and alleviate the valve problem it would be an excellent opportunity to also design the system with the circulation pumps at the supply side instead of the return side, etc. But I just can't justify this kind of work if I don't replace the boiler to a more efficient one. Does this make sense ?

If so then what kind of boilers is recommended, should I get the condensing kind which also generates the domestic hot water ?

Thanks again,
Michael