Munchkin Residential Boiler

Mark Hunt

Is that you?

Mark H

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John Blanck

Munchkin residential HW boiler

I live in an 80 year-old, three story home with hot water heat. The 40 year-old AO Smith boiler needs replacing. One of the contractors is recommending the Munchkin M199 with a 92% efficiency rating. The other contractor says that I won't realize the savings because the heat differential between the return water and outgoing water is not high enough. Who's right? Will I realize substantial savings by investing an extra $5,000 in the Munchkin, or should I just go with an 82% Raytherm?

ScottMP

extra

5,000.00 ?? That sounds a little high but I don't know the job site.

The savings depend upon what you have for heat in the rooms. That age of house do you have cast iron radiators ?
If so you coud certainly see that type of efficiency.

Not so much with copper finned baseboard.

Scott


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John Blanck

Hi Scott,

The quote for the Munchkin boiler was $11,127 and included bleeding all of the radiators a back-flow prevention valve and a room thermostat. The quote to replace it with a Lennox GWB8-245E was $6,653. My house is a 3 story brick with 18 cast iron radiators. What other high efficiency boiler would you recommend?

J.C.A._3

May I ????

How different were those 2 proposals? Was one just a "boiler replacement", and the other with more bells and whistles? Was there more included in the Munchie proposal like an indirect water heater ?

John, you've got the best scenerio for a condensing boiler available. Cast iron radiators and low flue temps are the winning combination for this type of boiler. Add in some room controllers (thermostatic radiator valves) and you're on the road to serious fuel savings.

There are many choices out there for condensing boilers right now. Pricewise, there are some big differences. Viessman is the top O' the pops so far....but up there. In most areas, Buderus has a great offering,(see your state codes), and there are a slew of others among the Munchkin. Lockinvar,Peerless, Utica and Weil McLain just to mention a few.

Like I said earlier, you have the best situation to get the ROI from a condensing boiler. Add some outdoor re-set and the payback could be real short. Chris

Jim Cheung_2

Well, that explains it. Bleeding all the radiators is a big part of that money. And a thermostat, that's a couple of thousand right there.

Seriously, you are probably getting a too-big boiler and you are certainly being overcharged. Suggest getting more quotes.

But the contractor who said you can't benefit from a condensing boiler is wrong. Your version of what he told you makes no sense; I am a homeowner and have met some contractors who are just making things up as they go along.

Dave Yates (PAH)

You'll be hugging those rads

if you go to high efficiency and utilize full outdoor reset by adding the Vision control to the Munchkin. Once the water temps fall below 130 F, which they will be quite frequently, your cast iron will be more radiant than convective. You won't regret the move.

11K for a high eff installation may not be out of line. Simply depends on what's involved and, by all means, you should ask for an explanation. Then again, the 6K+ for the other boiler could be low & throw off the comparison too. We've had some Munchkin installs that were lower, some at around the same price-point and a few that were higher.



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grindog

munchkin boiler

did any of the contractors do a heat loss calc. That is the most important thing.
What type of heat do you have? if cast iron radiators are there now you will value by using a condensing boiler especially if there are thermostatic radiatr valves installed.
The munchkin comes with an outdoor reset control that helps lower your fuel costs regardlees of your heat emmiters.
Try and find a pro here and get the proper heat loss done. That will help dictate the proper equiptment and pricing

Adam_12

To get an accurate idea of what the boiler costs check out spnwsupply.com .They carry Munchkin ,Laars and other boiler trim.The munchkin will cost more due to it is a high efficiency appliance ,a cheaper high efficiency option is a Trinity by NTI.
Your contractor should due an accurate heat loss ,chances ar that your boiler is oversized.You ideally want your boiler to run constantly on the coldest day for your region[design day].
With a mid efficient the replacement boiler can usually tie into the existing venting,this is less expensive than new venting required for a high efficiency .Mid efficiency are generally easier to get parts for than high efficiency.With that they are easier and cheaper to maintain.
All lot of people in the trade argue the merits of each . My feeling that savings will only occur if a good control system is put in place.The control system will ultimately save you money regardless if the appliance is high or mid efficiency.My house has cast iron rads and i run a Weil Mclein CGI cast iron boiler with a Tekmar 256 .On the top floors I have TRVs on the rads this is in effect a cheap and effective way of zoning my rooms.the heat is very well balanced through the house since I did this.
Talk to your contractor about savings that can be made from proper sizing and a good control system.These two things will ultimately save you the most money.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

There's a grain of truth in your contractor's statement. Presuming this was originally a gravity system (VERY likely in an 80 year-old house), such system when converted to forced flow typically have very high flow rates and very low difference in temperature between the return and "outgoing" (supply). This difference is known as delta-t. "Delta" means "change in".

BUT, that problem can be addressed in a number of ways.

Probably the best is to install TRVs (thermostatic radiator valves) on all of your radiators. They're not the cheapest thing in the world, but if you can do some of the heavy work yourself, you can keep costs down considerably.

Traditional primary-secondary piping will also address the issue, but a device often called a low-loss header is preferable as it truly decouples the radiation from the boiler. With traditional primary/secondary, higher flow through the radiation side still reduces the delta-t at the boiler--this results in somewhat less efficiency. Such does not happen to the same degree in a low-loss header, but not all installers will be familiar with the device and many condensing/modulating boiler manufacturers do not show the device in their "standard" installation examples.

The price differential you mention seems quite high. I rather suspect that the quoting contractor has very little familiarity with condensing/modulating boilers but has plenty of other work to keep him busy...

mark smith

well, Adam ..

what possible purpose could there be to pricing out the material for this job ...

it is a Small part of the overall picture ..

i applaud your stupidity
in continuing the degradation of this Trade

chuck shaw

And don't forget

One of the things I see quite a bit, in systems such as you described, is not too many contractors, take into account flushing the old system to remove mud, muck and sludge. Romar offers some great products for system cleaning (click on Virtual Trade Show, to the left). Also in this system I highly recommend the installation of a Wye strainer. This will help prevent things from possibly fouling the coils in the exchanger.

Having said this, the most important part of your boiler selection, is the contractor, how comfortable is he with the product? How good is local support if he feels he needs it? Both critical.

One of our salesmen, loves to tell the story of one of the first Munchkins installed. In a home, a little older than yours. The gas company showed up with a sheriff, about 3 months after the install, with a warrant, to find out how the 85 yr old lady who owned the home was stealing fuel.

Chuck Shaw
Technical Support Dept.
Heat Transfer Products

P.S.--We do not authorize anyone to sell our products over the internet

Adam_12

Well Mark

If you want to be sucessful in business you need to be honest and upfront with your costs .Your customer has the right to know your costs and that markup is customery in all installations they are not going to install it themselves .You obviousley do not think highly of your customer ,being dishonest and decietful will not build your business.People have every right to know the hard costs of an installationand your costs as a business opertator .In fact you are the stupid one with your head in the sand .Treat your customers properly and your work schedule will be full.Screwing customers over ,by padding bills with your f@#$!^%ups degrades the trade like nothing else does.Know your costs ,tell them your costs they will appreciate your honesty and they will refer you to others.

Jim Cheung_2

huh???

The Munchkin MUST have P/S piping.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The "low loss header" or "uncoupling device" is a form of primary/secondary.

joel_19

gentelman

may i kindly remind everyone that this is not the place to discus actual pricing on jobs . How can we comment if a price is too high or low or whatever without looking at the job.

Also remember that our over head costs , costs for labor etc vary greatly in different areas . Example I just got an email from a contractor who bought a suitable small office for 80k . In my town I just passed on buying a falling down barn for 425k that would have needed another few hundred k in work to be suitable . I'm kicking myself now because it was the only thing on the market for less than a million . Obviously the guy with the 80k building would think prices here are high but for what he pays for amortgage you couldn't rent a 1 bedroom dive here let alone a commercial building.

lets remember that what is exspensive or cheap is all relative .

Dave Yates (PAH)

we have onme cust

who is an engineer and very much involved in the hydronics industry who states he shaved 70% off of the actual fuel usage. True story.

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Mark Hunt

Adam


I ask only this,

How would you know if my "costing" was honest to begin with?

Would you also agree that even if I laid out my C.O.D.B (Cost of doing business) you as a consumer could still disagree?

I'm not trying to single you out here but you made some powerful statements that require a response.

How much do you think I should make per year Adam? How much am I worth? Cuz' that's what it comes right down to. You have a pre-determined value for my skills. What is it?

You threw out the "Screwing customers over ,by padding bills with your f@#$!^%ups degrades the trade like nothing else does", so tell us all how you caught us.

Unless you have your own business, you have no idea what it costs to BE in business. Unless your job requires that you be available 24/7/365, you have no idea what a contractor must anticipate. You already told the world that you are "not a pro" yet you feel qualified to offer up your $.02.

What do you think the access is to this job Adam?? How big is the boiler that has to come out Adam??? How many man hours will it take to remove Adam?? Answer that.

So Adam, since you have it all figured out, start your own GD business and show us all how it should be done.

Until then, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

And don't bother with the "I would never hire you" remark, cuz I would have never have worked for you.

Now you are here at a site that people come to for free advice and help. People that may have tried to DIY and ended up on the wrong end of the stick. And YOU Adam, decide to throw a punch at the pros that YOU by-passed to "save money" and yet you still expect a "FREE" ANSWER?!?!?!?!?!?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Keep talking Adam. Soon you will be the "expert" here on The Wall.

You seem to know "alot".

Mark H

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Keith_8

Since when

does a "fair" business person need to discuss their gross margins and net profits to be successful?

Is the client buying the business or a simply a service we provide?

I'm trying to picture the HVAC success model being promoted like the automobile market. All the confusion and misleading promotions. No Thanks.

Keith

marc

new car

do you get to ask Ford how much the truck costs, not including labor, overhead, ect. NO!! why should the Contractor be expected to breakdown Their proposal? marc

Constantin

Agreed...

... at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how the contractor derives the amount submitted with a proposal. What matters is whether the client is willing to spend the proposed amount of money to get a proposed amount of work done. That's also how it works in my business.

Whether the contractor marks up the wholesale cost of equipment by 0% and then covers his fixed and variable costs with a higher per hour rate or vice-versa, at the end of the day the contractor should be allowed to make an honest days pay for an honest days worth of work.

For example, I didn't ask for a breakdown of all costs for my home heating project. I was more interested in getting referalls, reviewing the specs in partnership with the contractor, and ending up with the optimum heating system for my needs. For me, the most important thing is to find a contractor that you can trust... then open your ears to their insights.

Creative/motivated homeowner/contractor teams have found ways to overcome tight budgets.. For example, one Wallie had the HO install nearly all the RFH tubing in the floor, a huge timesaver. That left enough money in the budget to allow for a very nice heating system to drive the installation and everyone benefited.

So rather than starting off the relationship with an antagonistic raking over the coals by comparing equipment pricing, etc. I'd spend the energy finding the right contractor.

Adam_12

mark

Relax , take it for what it is ?. Obviously I struck a nerve but if your going to sling crap and make comments you will get an appropriate response.My business requires me 24 and 7, 365 days a year so you and it is a Plumbing and Heating business so Iam more than qualified to respond to your post .I do not profess to be a know it all but Iam contributing to a discussion with helpful advice . What you charge is your business .I just like to be open and honest with my prices and can justify my expences .Iam not singling you out but customers can find out how much an appliance costs by accessing links on this web page.This is not top secret information nor should it be treated as such.

Weezbo

That is because you arent in the habit

of comparing apples to oranges.Weezbo *~/:)

some times it is difficult to see a logical syllogisim or fulcrum point of reasoning not that one doesnt exist however when one is not even comparing apples to oranges they have already been led further out on the limb on any reply unless it is to restate the inital statement and or revise the question . or am i just making this up as i go along?

right now i am at home ,occuping space, contemplating going back to work,do you see anything in that statement that suggests that i have had a long vacation?

Wayco Wayne_2

Back to the subject.

Get a heat load done if it's not done already. I bet the extra $5000 includes an indirect. I just finished piping in a Munchkin and straightened out some horrendous piping. It took 5 days. Most cast iron replacements take far less time since you can cut out the old and slide the new in and repipe the same way. (I'm a little mad cuz I only allowed for 4 days. grrrrrr.) I also have a Munchkin customer who claims a 70% savings over pevious Winters. Another who claims 50%. They have big cast iron rads too. Because of the low velocity of gravity systems the existing radiators can be oversized by up to 300%. This is ideal for a condensing boiler with outdoor reset since you don't need as hot water temps to do your heating. Lower water temps means better savings. Outdoor reset means longer cycles better comfort and bigger savings. Doit,doit doit. Get a condensing boiler. You won't regret it. WW

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Weezbo

*~/:) Thank God i am a multidimensional personality

that way i can always blame one of the other guys for eating up all the food,hanging my coats on the floor and leaving all the dirty dishes:))