Am I at risk of a corrosion/condensing issue?

rob_26

Hi glenn what if the supply does not have a ball valve to adjust it how do you adjust for the temp you need?

Jim_66

Am I at risk of condensing/corrosion issues with new boiler?

Hi all!

I have a new cast hot water iron boiler

Here's the setup:
Burnham series 2 cast iron, atmospheric, gas. Single-zone. Just a round thermostat, no fancy controls. Converted from a gravity system. Old-fashioned cast iron rads. It appears to be sized OK because all my bids recommended the same size (96,000BTU)

Here's my worry:
I've been having problems with even heat out of the system and have been pretty much been abandoned by the installers...they like to install, not service apparently!

Im not asking about the balancing problems really--I'm much more worried about low water temps and if they will ruin the boiler as fast as I read about.

Even in recent cold weather (5 degrees F) water boiler temps never get above about 135F-ish (boiler thermo's on the supply side, pump on return).

Hi limit is at 160, and admittedly it hasnt been super cold (wisconsin cold) but I thought regular water temps under 140 caused corrosion problems...

Am I correct to be worried, or misunderstanding the whole deal?

I appreciate any help--Im willing to deal with uneven heating but will get much more assertive with the installers if I have an actual boiler protection issue...

thanks!
jay in laCrosse

Unknown

Hi Jay

Did the installers leave the instruction manual with you ? If it's missing , you can download a .pdf copy right on Burnham's website . They do specifically state a boiler bypass is needed when low boiler water return temps will be sustained .

Rich Lowenstein_2

Doesn't seem like you had a knowledgable installer...why is the pump on the return side? You got a cheap changeout.

Low water temperature can be a result of having excess radiation (as many old houses do) combined with a properly sized boiler. In other words, maybe the full 96000 BTU output of the boiler is emitted by the radiators when the supply temperature is only 135F. So the boiler doesn't have the strength to get the water any hotter.

A bypass will fix that. This would also be a good time to think of reset, instead of that awful "bang-bang" heating method. But it will cost money.

Jim_66

cheap changeout/bypass

Im sorry to say that I now know it was a whambam thankyou maam job, so know its what to do about it.

When I got all the bids none of them mentioned type of piping/pumps or anything like that, only boiler brands (and I thought Burnham the best choice, and it wasnt the lowes bid either).

So, my boiler IS at risk?...there is a bypass pipe with a valve between the supply and return on the back of the boiler. They didnt tell me when/if the valve should be closed, for now its open. Why even put a valve on it?

Im debating what to do next--I dont imagine it would be a huge job to move the pump to supply. But the original installers will (and have been) just give me the "homeowners dont know what there talking about" line, so I guess I'll have to hire another installer to correct it all. The weird thing is it all passed city inspection!

I really do appreciate the help--I need to learn so much so I can at least explain why I want them to correct it!

Al Gregory

The pump on the supply is a good thing to do but its not going to ruin the boiler with it on the return. 99% of boilers out there have the pump on the return. The boiler may be underfired or to small or to big for your home. The time to worrey about the installing contractor is before you hire him.

STEVE PAUL_3

Boiler install

Jay, if I read your post correctly it said that there is a by-pass. That being the case why not give the original installer the chance to make good on his installation? Show him Burnhams instructions regarding boiler return temperatures and ask him to properly adjust the by-pass to give you the right return temperatures. I wouldn't assume that he wont come back or that he does not know what he is doing. Once he understands that you understand, you are dealing with him from a position of knowledge. Give him the benefit of the doubt, but only one time.

rob_26

what size is your house & the size of your rads

Mike M.

Just a home owner here but I was in the same situation. Had a Burnham series 2 installed last year. Piped by the book but the installer offerd little help about setting the bypass. He left the bypass valve half closed and the throttle valve on the supply wide open. I had the same problem with low boiler temps before the thermostat stopped calling for heat. I played around with the valves and it turns out the best setting for me is bypass wide open and throttle valve on supply half closed. Boiler gets nice and hot now. Even hits high limit sometimes. So play around with your bypass. It's free and may be the only "cure" you need.

Unknown

Adjusting the bypass

Adjusting a bypass properly will require opening the bypass valve AND closing the boiler valve in somewhat equal increments. Leaving the boiler valve wide open doesn't neccessarily mean that the bypass is working. Adjust these valves with cold return water coming back and watch the boiler temperature gauge. When it steadies out at above 150F or so, then you are safe inside the boiler. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Unknown

As Al stated

All is not lost with a return side pump. What does matter is that the bypass is piped correctly. The pump needs to be on the system side of the bypass piping to be a "Boiler Bypass". There also need to be valves on either the outlet of the boiler or return of the boiler to properly adjust the bypass. When you open up the bypass, you also need to close down equally on the boiler isolation valve. This will help in reducing the flow through the boiler while diverting cooler return water across the bypass and back out to the system. Take a look at the picture below for proper return side pump bypass piping. Hope this helps.


Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Rich Lowenstein_3

Pump on the supply is a separate issue from your water temperature issue. The only difference it makes is less need to bleed radiators.

Robert O'Connor_12

Jay

Has the system been closed, (meaning the expansion tank removed from the attic and a compression tank installed in the near boiler piping?). Never being able to get the temps up past 135 raises my eyebrow. Did the contractor use the circulator (wet rotor) that came with the new boiler?

Robert O'Connor/NJ

hr

I'd rather you use a \"smart\"

device to watch and protect that boiler against low return temperature. A fixed temperature 3 way thermostatic is a simple inexpensive way.

Here are some other methods from Burnham's experts.

http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,90176,00.html

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

S Ebels

Ahhhh yes

The old school of hard knocks, where the test comes first and then the lesson follows.......... Been through that many times.

To answer your question about water temps, Yes you need to remedy the <140* water temps before you kill that new Burnham. I'm assuming that the temp you are refering to is on the boiler gauge so that means your return temp is even lower.

Some of the other posts alluded to a bypass and that's a good thing. Get your manual out, assuming the installer left it with you, and study the piping diagrams in it. Burnham does a good job of showing how they want their equipment piped in order to ensure successful operation. Compare what you see in the manual to what you see behind your boiler. If it doesn't match, study it a little longer until you get a grasp on why Burnham wants it done that way. Call the factory up and ask someone in tech service about it, I'm sure they'll be happy to help you out. After that, call the installer and politely ask why your boiler was installed differently than what the factory recommends. Tell him you have talked to the factory and they have told you how it should be. (again, that's if it doesn't match) See what his response is and then decide how big of a hammer you need to use on him. Politely tell him that you would like to give his name to the folks at Burnham so they can speak with him personally. If he say's no-way, do it anyhow. I would dare bet that the folks at Burnham would appreciate the chance to help your installer learn a couple things.

In the meantime, play with that bypass and see if you can get the temp above 140*. Your boiler will love you.

[Deleted User]

Glen...

it could just be semantics, and maybe I'm not understanding the gist, but what you've shown is a system bypass, and not a boiler bypass. That would serve to lower the water temeprature to the loads, but would NOT serve to protect the boiler from sustained cool water return syndrome. It would allow the boiler to hit a higher discharge sooner, but would not still protect the boiler from long term low return water temperatures.

In order to fully protect the boiler, a 3 way ESBE valve would need to be applied to the boilers return, and pumps moved to pump away with a bypass, and on and on...

With this set up, putting a bypass in between the boiler outlet, and the pumps inlets WOULD raise the return water temperatures, thereby lessening the exposure time for condensation production.

Correct?

Maybe I'm just NOT reading this right...

With all due respect.

ME

rob_26

Hi glenn what if the supply does not have a ball valve to adjust it how do you adjust for the temp you need?

A.J.

Burnham people are trying to keep the system flow up

By doing this the installer can hopefully even out any cold or hot spots in the system. By choking off some of the flow through the bioler you are getting a higher delta T thus drying off those wet sections, especially in a high water content system like radiators.
Are their better ways to protect your boiler, sure but in this dog eat dog buisness world we compete in this provides some protection for their cast iron.
Ron has sny one from that company mentioned that your chimney should be lined to protect it from the same condensation that your conserned about in your bioler?

siggy

I'm for \"smarts\" as well

How about installing a variable speed injection control system between the boiler loop and the distribution loop to the CI rads. The return temperature sensor for the injection control will keep the boiler above a set minimum temperature at all times. You also get the ability to do FULL RESET of the distribution system water temperature, allowing you to back those rads right down toward room temperaturre on mild days. If you have quite a bit of internal heat gain variations in the building you could even install thermostatic radiator valves on the rads, a differential pressure bypass valve, and go to continuous circulation of the distribution system. Try this once and you'll be convinced it's the way to handle the condensation issue and get great comfort in the process. See attached drawing for concept.

Unknown

Mark

What I have shown is indeed a "Boiler Bypass" because the cold return flow is "bypassing the boiler". A "System Bypass" would have flow going from the boiler supply to the retun to warm up the return or would be "bypassing the system". Here is a drawing depicting both types.

I would also desire that installers "raise the bar" a bit and utilize other methods such as Esbe valves, primary-secondary and other methods. Return water temperature monitoring is a dead safe way to ensure that the boiler does not see the cool return water and is exactly what we incorporate into our RTC Control. The problem is that it is hard enough to get installers to even use isolation valves, let alone boiler protection methods. The bypass piping is the very least way to help protect the boiler.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Unknown

Rob

Unless you have a valve either on the outlet or inlet of the boiler, you are not going to be able to throttle flow to make the bypass work.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

hr

I understand what Glenn and AJ

are getting at. Sort of. But I didn't hear this customer ask for the least expensive way to provide SOME protection.

Piping the best devise as we mentioned or a tekmar control is not very expensive in the big picture. Certainly less expensive than replacing flue piping or sections. Even if they are under warranty

Not to mention potential CO issues with plugged exchangers or corroded flue piping. I have a couple dozen pictures of the result of inadequate boiler return protection. They are not pretty pictures.

Isn't that exactly why the Revolution boiler was built?

Put me in the row with the folks that say do it right or don't do it at all

It's time the manufactures INSIST their products be put in responsively in this regard. A partial fix just doesn't cut it.

This rant is coming from a contractor that goes back to deal with these 1/2 baked installations and gives the customer the bad $$ news. Our industry is plagued with high temperature (non condensing) boilers improperly connected to high mass, mainly radiant slab, loads.

I feel better now, thanks

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

A.J.

> device to watch and protect that boiler against

> low return temperature. A fixed temperature 3

> way thermostatic is a simple inexpensive

> way.

>

> Here are some other methods from

> Burnham's

> experts.

>

> http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleI

> nformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,901

> 76,00.html

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

A.J.

> device to watch and protect that boiler against

> low return temperature. A fixed temperature 3

> way thermostatic is a simple inexpensive

> way.

>

> Here are some other methods from

> Burnham's

> experts.

>

> http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleI

> nformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,901

> 76,00.html

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

A.J.

> device to watch and protect that boiler against

> low return temperature. A fixed temperature 3

> way thermostatic is a simple inexpensive

> way.

>

> Here are some other methods from

> Burnham's

> experts.

>

> http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleI

> nformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,901

> 76,00.html

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

A.J.

Your so right Hot Rod (really just a band -aid)

starting this week I'm going to give a variable speed injection pump as a upgrade to the same old bioler bypass.
I'v stayed away from it till now because the other contractors around here still think you have to sell on price only.Their idea of an upgrade would be new flue pipe.
Who's product are you using for this fix?

rob_26

Hi glenn, this was the deal with dale, when he put in the bypass in he teed off the supply, to the left of the supply he put the bypass going into the bottom of the return with a ball valve, to the right of the tee he put a ball valve then exp.tank with air seperator then the ciculator so i can not balance the bypass. i do have a ball valve at the return aswell going to each zone. so if i understand you i could adjust the return with the ball valve to slow the flow. Dale did not put in any termomaters on the supply or return so i need to get one to measure the temps

rob_26

Hi glenn i did find that the supply runs about 156 f & the return about 149f aswell the bypass about 154 f do you think that would be ok? am correct with the return adjustment to correct the temp?

Robert Scharpf
thanks
rob