Commercial Tubing Install

[Deleted User]

and it's obvious that Paul brought it to the artichokes attention which is an important thing. These guys have clauses in their contracts with the owners that state that if they unknowlingly screw up, and a sub contractor is aware of it and doesn't bring it to light, then the sub is partially culpable for the screw up. In Paul$ ca$e, in a$ much a$ he'$ doing it time and material, the error goe$ to HI$ favor. The owner lo$e$, but they hired the artichoke in the first place...

Now if the tables had been turned, and say the artichick TOLD him to put the tube down at 18" centers, knowing that the supply approach water temperature was going to be 85, and the panel load was 40 btu/sq. ft./hr, Paul should have required a Sign Off letter, with the articdick's signature on it, and I'd send a copy to the GC and the owner.

Cover your butt with paper if in doubt, and remember, if it ain't written down it doesn't exist...

ME

Paul Rohrs

\"Value Added Engineering\"

was not an option on this job. We are contracted out for labor only on this tubing install. This is the new Nebraska Machinery plant being built for Caterpillar.

The Main bay is already done and we installed 18,000 feet of Watts Radiant 5/8 onix tubing. We had a few headaches but not so bad altogether. The up-side was that the tubing was extremely easy to lay in the 30F weather.

Next up was this tool-room. Heat-loss says 4 loops 600 feet long, 12"OC. Total square foot of the U-shaped tool room: 1500 sq/ft. Are you with me? Did you do the math as well? The architect does not and will not allow any 600 foot lenght of tubing to be cut. Long story short, we had to cram a load of tubing into a space that I would estimate at about 1400 sq/ft. This is the smallest of 4 zones and has no exterior exposed walls.

I suppose I am kind of venting, but after the first 600 ft loop went down, our Watts-Radiant Clip tie tool crapped out. Aha! Plan B, I bought another clip tie tool. It crapped out also. Plan C, Zip tie. It took a little bit longer, but we got it done. Honestly I have been on worse jobs and the tubing install is usually the easiest portion, but this kept cascading into a worse and worse scenario.


For a tool room, this will be a very well heated room. I hope they can stay awake.

Watts-Radiant is providing their skid-mounted pump package for zone pumps. B&G series 60's with redundant pumps. Thats right, a 4-loop zone of 5/8 Onix is getting a series 60 pump to blast water thru a 6"OC zone.

The interesting thing is that one of the Watts-Radiant engineers was in my office the day before talking about the job and laughing with me about this rigid architect.

Even though we are not contracted out for labor on the mechanical install, I will go back later and get the mechanical room pics. Should be interesting.

Regards,

PR


Biggerstaffradiantsolutions.com

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Brian (Tankless)

They're fibbing, Paul

that's not going to be a tool-room. They're going to pump 500* water through your tubing and use the room as a kiln to bake on that beautiful yellow paint :O)

That is one heck of a manifold rack, they could hang two 450lb Burnham's on that

I hope you gave them a very detailed and precisely worded disclaimer regarding performance?

I've met an architect or two just like him...rigid, yeah, like a board.

Looks good though.

Brian W.

Kevin O. Pulver

Kevin O. Pulver

Why 4 loops?

Why doesn't he just go with one 2,400 foot loop and save on manifolds and fittings? They can get some big PTO driven circ running off a Cat diesel tractor and use it for advertising. It would be interesting to watch the tubing swell up like one of those drain uncloggers on a garden hose! Kevin

J.C.A._3

How are....

Your knees feeling after all those tie straps?

We did a truck barn last year , and it took a week for the indents from the wire mesh to get out of mine.

As to the architect,make sure they know HIS name and that you were just "folowing directions". Hope they're using some sort of condensing boiler here. The return temps are going to kill anything else in short order. Chris

kevin coppinger_4

is the architect to tell you about the heating system? Does he really konw what he is talking about? Do he do the heatloss? Is there insulation under the mesh? kpc

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Paul Rohrs

Showing my age...

Oddly enough, I was a little bit sore. I am deathly out of shape and I need to start the 0500 Biggerstaff Radiant Solutions PT program. My obituary would say that I was shot by my own troops.

I am going to talk to the architect and see if we can get 1/4" RO tubing specified and go with base-mounted pumps.

PR

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hr

Why is the artichoke

calling the shots over the Watts engineers? Who has the most experience in this type of design.

Anyways, it looks like a nice job for you.

I'd be interested in knowing about your Cliptie woes. It is a very simple tool to strip and field service. A few links and springs. Not much to break down. I've run somewhere around 50,000 ties through mine with periodic cleaning and maintenance.

hot rod

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thp_8

Shoot with only like

45' of head, it will only take a 1-1/2hp Series 60 to do that.
They did spec. one 60 for each loop. RRRiiiggghhhttt. They probably needed a little electric space heating and decided to do it with the circ. motors.

Paul Rohrs

Clip Tie Tool

Both clip tie tools only lasted the duration of the main bay which was 30 loops of 600 feet. I'd estimate I have only run a total of 8000 clips cumulative between the two of them. For the price of the clips, these things should be made of Kryponite.

I will tinker with them and see if I can get them back on-line. The metal plate on the back side that is pop-riveted on, the plate came off. You can see this in picture #3378 on the tailgate of my truck.

I like the tool except for all of the misfires and clips that do not attach completely. Admittedly, Matt J was working next to me and using the tool with far less difficulty that I was having.

The other tool just seized up. It's like someone poured molasses down that internal spring. I will take it apart and wash them out. Do you think I should use some penetrating oil on this tool? I would love any help to recondition these bad boys we still have to put down 10 loops in the 6000 sq/ft parts warehouse.

Regards,

PR

Biggerstaffradiantsolutions.com

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[Deleted User]

Maybe the artichoke knows something we don't....

like they plan on using rejected waste heat in the temperature range of 85 degrees F to accomplish his feat.

600 feet on a 5/8" loop is no big deal, even for an undersized pump, and remember, there ain't supposed to be people walking aroound in their bare feet doing the oooh, ahhhh test on bare floors. Lower approach temps = higher tube density, higher appraoch temps = less tube density.

We're getting ready to kick off a maintenacne building that will have 600 foot lengths of 3/4" PEX, 18" on center, running at 140 degrees F. If ya got it, (approach temperatures) flaunt it. If you don't, conform (high density tubing) ...

ME

hr

Paul,

the OD of that obese 5/8" Onix may be a little hard for the ClipTie to swallow. This, or not lifting the wire agaist the tube tightly would cause misfires.

If the wire mesh is thicker than # 10 wire, it further stresses the ability to "grab" around the whole asembly.

I tend to get a little too aggressive when it starts to mis fire, this leads to part breaking

I would keep it lubricant free. Any oils or sprays seem to attract more grit. Keep in mind the tool is working in the dirt, somewhat

hot rod

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hr

Perhaps ME

maybe the waste heat from the engine test bed dynos? Fairly common at engine facilities.

I think it's the math Paul questioned, 1500 square feet at 12" oc. Unless the leader lengths are real long it should not require 2400 feet of tube?

hot rod

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