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magnets
Brian (Tankless)
Member Posts: 340
for everything you said.
I've used various types, shapes & configurations of magnets for years with some astounding results.
The best results ever, were on gas & diesel engines. Almost zero CO readings (Bear 4-gas analyser) lower exhaust temp's, and yes, better gas mileage.
I haven't talked about, or argued about this for years because I always get the same old tired, worn out responses.......show me. I let results speak for me these days.
Brian, who's 1993 Chevy 4.3 V6 got 18mpg from the factory, now gets 22mpg. No catalytic converter and almost zero CO.
Snake oil?
I've used various types, shapes & configurations of magnets for years with some astounding results.
The best results ever, were on gas & diesel engines. Almost zero CO readings (Bear 4-gas analyser) lower exhaust temp's, and yes, better gas mileage.
I haven't talked about, or argued about this for years because I always get the same old tired, worn out responses.......show me. I let results speak for me these days.
Brian, who's 1993 Chevy 4.3 V6 got 18mpg from the factory, now gets 22mpg. No catalytic converter and almost zero CO.
Snake oil?
0
Comments
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learned some new things
I went to the green building conference last week. Among the other vendors was a company who sells magnetic treatment devices for minerals. Knowing of the debates on the wall in the past, I just had to go up and talk to the folks. I asked them what they did. Then I asked them the question: "Some people say this is snakeoil, why isn't that so?"
They showed me a copy of an ashrae sponsered reseach white paper. Ashrae paid a professor at Drexel University to determine if magnetic water treatment worked. He focused on the cooling tower situation, as that is a place where you can have large amounts of water and make-up water. Also, the water passed the magnet many times. They found the magnetic products to be effective, and that the minerals dropped to the bottom of the cooling tower just like they would with chemical treatment.
Now I know this doesn't directly apply to a closed loop system with very small amounts of make up water, but at least it says that there is some basis for this.
I also saw something else really cool for treating cooling tower water. The heart of the system was a cylinder that had a pair of anodes in it, and the outside wall was charged as the cathode. As the system ran, the calcium would get attracted to the outside wall and would forma toothpaste like form. They then had a scraper that scraped the lime paste down and then a little pump to slurry up the paste and wash it away. Also, by having the electrical charge there, they found that in 90% of the cases they did not need to use biocides in the water either.
enjoy,
jerry
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Read This...
... thread from a engineering board I frequent.0 -
Read This...
... thread from an engineering board I frequent. I saved it after it had pretty much run it's course, which was good, because it was deleted after a while. I have no idea why.0 -
I have one in my potable water system
took the softner out, it works great, just have to remember to backwash it. They were originaly designed for cooling systems and for water treatment where you could have NO salt residue like waxhing circut boards. They have been out for more than twenty years.0 -
that's washing circuit boards, not waxing em
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If...
...you were getting "salt residue" downstream from the softener, something was wrong. Did you have this residue tested to actually verify what it was?
If you took your softener out, and things are still working OK, then all that indicates to me is that you didn't really need a softener in the first place. What's the hardness of your incoming water?
There is no credible evidence from anywhere that magnets do anything to soften or "condition" water.0 -
I have used them
successfuly all over the country on hot water heating applications. THey worked as specefied. I'd be leary about using them is a critical situation, like steam, but am comfortable using them on hot water applications.
ME0 -
They say the man...
with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an arguement. I've never used 'em (magnets)myself, but if guys like Mark with mountains of experience say they work; then I would take notice. I don't know if you've noticed, but "science" is always playing catch-up to the real world.
Pioneers used to put a silver dollar in their milk pitcher to slow down spoilage. Sounds like witchcraft doesn't it? Well now the best ceramic water filters for camping/hiking have silver in them. Turns out silver kills the bad stuff.
When "science" bled George Washington to death thinking they had to get the bad blood out of him, the book of Deuteronomy by his bed contained these words, "the life of the flesh is in the blood." When "science" told Columbus the earth was flat and held up by Atlas, a giant tortoise, or other things; the book of Isaiah said, "God hangs the circle (sphere) of the earth on nothing." Now many scientists mock Christians for believing, "In the beginning God..." But these same scientists have made monkeys of themselves by teaching us that everything we see came from a rock. Time is the magic kiss in this fairy tale that turns the frog into a prince. I wouldn't be to quick to discount something just because it doesn't have official endorsement from the "scientific" community. Kevin0 -
Sounds...
... like you're all set. Buy a magnet for your water system, hook it up and pray that it works. Good luck.0 -
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How and where do you apply them. I'm game.0 -
Please tell me
what you use, where you get 'em, and how you apply.
It sure doesn't take much commitment of time or money to give it a try.
The same people who wouldn't be caught dead letting a chiropractor adjust them, are happy as can be to pay through the nose to let an MD fuse together a couple vertebrae or whatever surgery they tell them they need. People who wouldn't pay $5 for nutritional supplements don't mind shelling out $300 a month for prescriptions to make the pharmaceutical industry rich.
People who won't try $10 on magnets to see if it works will spend $20 a week on lottery tickets and the odds of them winning would only be a little bit worse if they'd never even been born!
It's just a different philosophy I guess, but I am open to alternative technologies. You can email me privately if you want, it doesn't matter to me.
Kevin pulverk@alltel.net0 -
magnets
Currently all of my magnets are tied up holding the kid's schedules and the Dominoes coupons on the fridge...
I like the idea of magnetic treatment: All too often , the simplest solutions are overlooked in favor of scientifically engineered answers.
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I've succesfully used LimeFighter...
available on line at http://www.plumbingstore.com/limefighter.html
American Appliance introduced this brand to me. THey used it on their 10 year warranty water heaters.
If I'm not mistaken, State Industries incorporates magnets on their highly warranted products as well.
As previously stated, I'm comfortable using them on water heating/cooling appliances, but would use caution when it pertains to the horsepower of steam.
Here's more anectdotal evidence. At my mountian home, my father used to have to replace the water heater every five years from the lime scale accumulating inside the tank. It would rumble and shake so bad it could wake the dead, and it ran for ever and didn't put out a lot of hot water per hour. We replaced it 15 years ago and installed this very same water conditioner, and haven't touched it or needed to replace it since. It's right underneath my bedroom, so if it were rumbling, I'd have heard it long ago.
Another word of caution. These conditioners will NOT work on silica based calcification, or whats known as glass water, typically found throughout Texas. So long as the buildup is Calcium based, they will work.
ME0 -
So There...
...should be no end of boiler & cooling tower manufacturers who approve of magnetic water treatment devices in lieu of water softeners & chemical programs on their equipment, right? What about approvals from recognized agencies? ASME publishes the "Consensus On Operating Practices For The Control Of Feedwater And Boiler Water Chemistry In Modern Industrial Boilers" (ISBN 0-7918-1204-9). Can someone point to a similar publication on "water conditioning devices"?
Anybody?0 -
Good morning believers
Forgot to turn the heating on last night, gollly what a cold house I woke up to
Anyhoo. I use GMX on smaller dia pipes & flow rates. These units clamp around the pipe. I put them on my own home's cold water feed, and one after the "Seisco" water heater. I did NOT tell my wife at the time.
The same day, she said "there's something wrong with the water, I can't get the conditioner off my hair". I advised her to use half the shampoo, NO conditioner, and halve the detergent use in the laundry, which she did. She has not used conditioner since then, and that same Seisco tankless is now almost nine years old & I've never changed an element in it. We sold that home, moved Seisco to my step-daughters trailer, but I checked the elements first. There is absolutely no trace whatsoever, not even a "dusting" of any type of build-up on them. This, in an area where tank water heaters last 3-5 years max.
In fuel lines, I used units made in England by "Powerplus". The company in the U.S. was Greenviron Technologies, a unit of Atlantic Levinson. A.L. & the Powerplus technology dates back to WW2, when a fix was needed to make low-grade fuel usable in high compression piston-engined fighter planes. First, they coated the tanks with a tin-based alloy, it worked. Then to reduce weight, the alloy & a circular magnet were incorporated in a cylindrical unit, to be fitted into the fuel line with the fuel flowing through it. This worked even better.
The man who brought it here is a retired British Army colonel (engineering). He was awarded the MBE by the Queen for his efforts to further trade. The Queen does not give MBE's to snake-oil salesmen, trust me on that.
About four years ago, an article in the British press called "British Tanks go green" was published after they (piston & turbine-engined tanks) were fitted with these exact same units.
I personally installed four on school buses here in Calcasieu Parish, average fuel consuption went down around 14% with one bus dropping 21%.
I installed four on big trucks in Chicago because they failed emissions tests. That's all I did to the trucks, and they then passed.
Two on 6,000hp diesels at Hollywood Marine Towing Co. in Houston. Fuel use dropped 6%. Six percent of four tons per day is a huge saving. I have the printouts.
Google "Magnetic fluid conditioning" and see who is using & selling magnets. Halliburton's other shenanigans notwithstanding, they do not sell snake oil to their clients. In the area of R&D & abslolutely top-of-the-line engineering & equipment, Halliburton has no peers. And they sell magnets.
I believe another company is "Enercon". They make in-line units.
That's my rant done, now back to work.
One last one: I have a GMX on my garden hose. Even after washing, rinsing & air drying, there is never a water spot (dried minerals) on either the windshield or body. And my truck is black, they would show. I'm not a physisist (sp), I just know it works.
Later fella's.
Brian.
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Tony...
I've read your postings now for going on 5 years, or there abouts. I respect your knowledge base as it pertains to high pressure steam systems and heat exchanger technology. I also respect your background in water chemistry as it applies to mechanical systems, and I've never tried to counter anything that you have said in that regards.
As it pertains to potable water applications, and my use of magnetic water conditioners, I refuse to use ANY chemicals to prevent lime scale accumulations. Unless FDA approved, it is illegal. Hence, my recommendation that these devices be used ONLY on potable water heating and cooling (spelled ice makers) applications. I have personally seen proof that these devices work, as I'm certain you have proof that your chemcial methods work in YOUR situations. I have nothing to sell to you, and that is the reason that I always give a disclaimer on the use of magnetic conditioners on steam fired appliances.
So, in a nut shell, I guess that we as gentlemen can agree to reasonably disagree on the use of magnetic conditioners, as well as chemical water conditioners, especially as it pertains to my area of expertise, which is potable water applications.
Fair enough?
Respectfully,
ME0 -
So ASHRAE says yes and ASME says no
Tony,
The study was for repetitive pass water in a cooling tower situation. They found that the calcium sloughed off to the bottom of the tower just like when you use chemicals. The minerals did not disappear, any more than they disappear with chemical treatment. The research was done by someone selected and paid for by ASHRAE, not some vendor. There are a significant number of buildings owned by the DOE who do run this as their scale control solution and continue to operate successfully. If it were failing, the community would hear about it.
In all the reading in the thread, the most intersting comment was made about the descale/rescale process. Other than that, I really did not see much technical contribution from the people on either side.
Remember that scientists can be as bad as anyone in adopting new ideas or seaching beyond current theories. The last 200 years is littered with examples of now cornerstone theories that were ridiculed by scientists when first introduced. This has happened in every field of science that I know of. (My favorite is the comments of the time on Jenner's work on smallpox.) A scientist's beliefs are no better than anyone else's IMO.
jerry
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Tony, you have a point
Basically you are saying, "If it works, why doesn't everyone use it?" Your logic is reasonable, but it leaves out a lot of other variables. By the same logic we could also say, "If it were proven that exercise is good for you, everyone would do it." or, "If it were proven that smoking is bad for you, everyone would quit." Many times the majority is wrong, and the easiest solution is overlooked as "too simple". I think healthy skepticism is good, but crazy people invented the airplane, and all those other things that are impossible. I have perhaps less experience here than anyone else, but I do know this: Amateurs built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
Pick up a magnet and play with it. What are they? How does the tiny force field drag things to itself (or repel them)without touching them? It's like a tractor beam from science fiction. (except those are impossible... aren't they?)
Someone gave me a high gauss magnet the size of an aspirin. When I drop it down a 3 foot piece of copper tubing it takes maybe ten seconds to drop out the bottom. It's spiraling around in there without actually touching the sides, but being affected somehow. I saw a science show on TV where they built up huge magnetic fields and actually held a spider in mid air. They said they could lift grandma if they had a strong enough field. Copper, and spiders aren't supposed to be affected by magnetism. What's going on here? I don't know, but truly magnets are amazing. There's lots about them we don't understand. Where does the energy come from to hold them on your refrigerator forever? Wanna be safe? Don't say it'll never work. Say, "It seems crazy but who knows?" Lasers, supercomputers, space travel, microwave ovens, 2 way wrist TVs ala **** Tracy
Yesterdays science fiction is tomorrow's moneymaker. Don't laugh at the Wright brothers and they won't laugh at you. Cheerfully, Kevin
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Tony, you have a point
Basically you are saying, "If it works, why doesn't everyone use it?" Your logic is reasonable, but it leaves out a lot of other variables. By the same logic we could also say, "If it were proven that exercise is good for you, everyone would do it." or, "If it were proven that smoking is bad for you, everyone would quit." Many times the majority is wrong, and the easiest solution is overlooked as "too simple". I think healthy skepticism is good, but crazy people invented the airplane, and all those other things that are impossible. I have perhaps less experience here than anyone else, but I do know this: Amateurs built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
Pick up a magnet and play with it. What are they? How does the tiny force field drag things to itself (or repel them)without touching them? It's like a tractor beam from science fiction. (except those are impossible... aren't they?)
Someone gave me a high gauss magnet the size of an aspirin. When I drop it down a 3 foot piece of copper tubing it takes maybe ten seconds to drop out the bottom. It's spiraling around in there without actually touching the sides, but being affected somehow. I saw a science show on TV where they built up huge magnetic fields and actually held a spider in mid air. They said they could lift grandma if they had a strong enough field. Copper, and spiders aren't supposed to be affected by magnetism. What's going on here? I don't know, but truly magnets are amazing. There's lots about them we don't understand. Where does the energy come from to hold them on your refrigerator forever? Wanna be safe? Don't say it'll never work. Say, "It seems crazy but who knows?" Lasers, supercomputers, space travel, microwave ovens, 2 way wrist TVs ala **** Tracy.
Yesterdays science fiction is tomorrow's moneymaker. Don't laugh at the Wright brothers and they won't laugh at you. Cheerfully, Kevin
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This system out of Canada
was sent to me as a demo. Looks a bit more high tech than basic magnets. I have basic magnets on my well system. Try www.megola.com. Made in Germany must be the best
hot rod
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Why couldnt you put a magnet on the lowest point, on the return, on a steam system, with a removable end cap for cleaning?0 -
Check this out
Go to www.kjmagnetics.com they have rare-earth neodymium magnets for sale in all shapes and sizes. $5.00 will get you a small pile of them.
Click on their "Links", and then click on "copper pipe trick" they show the thing I was talking about. They even have results: A magnet dropped into a vertical four foot piece of 1/2" type "L" copper will take 17 SECONDS to fall out the bottom! They had some special heavy wall and it took 36 seconds! For a few bucks you should all buy some magnets and try it. I think we tend to take things for granted that are truly amazing, magnets are one of them. Kevin0 -
Can...
... you direct me to a copy of the ASHRAE report?
Which DOE buildings? There was a report that still pops up on the net, but it was discredited some time ago, and withdrawn.
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Can...
... you direct me to the link so I can read the ASHRAE report? In the ASHRAE "HVAC Systems & Equipment" book I've got, all it really says about water treatment is that "...a competent water treatment specialist can be invaluable because system requirements can vary widely."
Regarding the DOE - why was there scale deposit on the cooling towers to begin with? Sounds like the boys weren't up on their chemistry.
I have a favourite from the past as well. See the attachment. Not nearly all the ideas & inventions that come forward in the face of resistance are deemed valid by later discoveries.0 -
Here's...
...a link.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm
Here's one from the UK.
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/BAAnote.html
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I...
... don't start strings on this subject. If somebody says something that I disagree with, well...that's pretty much what the Wall is for, right? Otherwise it's just a mutual admiration society.
We'll agree to disagree.0 -
the ASHRAE report
Tony,
This is a 200 page report specific to magnetic water treatment that you have to pay money for. I did what review I could in the 10 minutes I had to look at it. I am getting a white paper abstract of it, but don't really want to pay the money for the whole thing. ASHRAE clearly has the stndards body mentality rather than the Internet mentality. I don't remember the title, but the author was Dr. Cho from Drexel University.
Yes, many inventions/propositions like the one you posted are not treated well by time. On the other hand, it is now medical practice in certain situations to use electrical stimulation to regrow bones faster.
jerry
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ASHRAE
The ASHRAE publication appears to be a research project - not an endorsement. People at university labs do research on all kinds of things, all the time - that's one of their main functions. Then the report gets published, and the rest of the academic community proceded to try to punch holes in it. Most get shot to pieces early on, and quietly get filed.
Here's the link to the ASHRAE research project, if anyone want's to pay to get a copy. If magnetic water treatment evolves from a research project to an actual published endorsement by ASHRAE, please let me know.
http://resourcecenter.ashrae.org/store/ashrae/newstore.cgi?itemid=17325&view=item&page=1&loginid=3865038&priority=none&words=magnetic water treatment&method=and&
The magnetic belt thing hasn't really changed and in fact, is still going strong. It now it seems to be bracelets advertised on TV that will somehow "improve my overall sense of wellness". I have no doubt that somebody's "overall sense of wellness" is being improved and I'm pretty sure that it's specifically the financial wellness of the guy who's selling these things for $20 a pop.0 -
ASHRAE
"The objective of this research is to investigate..." This would appear to be the results of a research program that has yet to debated, let alone have any actual, formal ASHRAE approval. It appears that all ASHRAE said "yes" to was to fund some research. That's great - by all means do some research.
Let me know when ASHRAE actually publishes their formal approval of magnetic water treatment devices.
Here's the ASHRAE link:
http://resourcecenter.ashrae.org/store/ashrae/newstore.cgi?itemid=17325&view=item&page=1&loginid=3865038&priority=none&words=magnetic water treatment&method=and&
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