Compiling Hydronic Install Basics List

D107

that I was trying to deal with a situation where a large installation company sent a rep out for an estimate who was not familiar with a host of things that wallies would consider essential; that plus the scanty contract details made me look for some basics I'd want included before signing or even comparing that to other contracts. Didn't want ot hear after the job, "Oh, you wanted pumping AWAY?"

But I agree about the risk of micro-managing; every good contractor has developed preferences that have worked for them and I always respect that --and learn from that.

David

D107

Some estimates/proposals more detailed than others

Within a week or so I will probably sign a contract for a boiler installation. I have noticed that some estimates/proposals are more detailed than others. While ultimately the customer should go with a contractor they feel they can trust with the dozens of choices that a good install involves, I thought it would help me (and hopefully other homeowners) if we could see what wallies consider the top ten or so essentials of an installation that are sometimes subject to being left out due to cost or contractor carelessness. I already have a few that I will get the contractor to add to the agreement:

1-microbubble air eliminators on boiler.
2-webstone isolation flanges and ball valves on circulators.
(on zone valves and expansion tank and ______ as well?
3-circulators (and flow and zone valves?) on supply side after expansion tank, pumping away from expansion tank.
4-Obviously low-water cutoff and relief valve.
5- try to direct vent on leeward side to avoid drafts into exhaust duct.

Perhaps the homeowner should insist on a complete list of parts and brands and spec for the job so they know what they're getting. And the contract might indicate 'to be done according to manufacturer recommendations.' I usually like to talk directly with manufacturer techs first.

Thanks,

David

Brad White_72

Specifications

David,

I think you are on a good tack here in the name of clarity. The only down-side I can see is that some -not all- contractors might think you are micro-managing. Still, you want what you want and let's go about getting it for you.

Point of clarification: If you are using circulators, one per zone, those are mutually exclusive from zone valves. Obviously if you use zone valves you need a circulator, but only one for the heating side, maybe one dedicated in parallel for domestic HW... diagram it out as a basis.

For item 4. I would have that say "all code-required safety and operational controls, wired into appropriate safety circuit. This shall include but not be limited to (low water cutoff), (local disconnect switch), (red-plate switch accessible from first floor), (heat detector)..."

Find out from your local authorities what is required for your own information. May be a good time to get CO detectors too if you do not have them already.

If you have particular sentiments about manufacturers, I would say so, but allow that the contractor may have their own preferences which may be as good if not better. I would make it a dialogue. I would think the boiler and contractor go together though! But the parts have some leeway perhaps.

Maybe start with a list much as you have, with your first preferences listed first:

Valves: Webstone, Watts, Conbraco/Apollo...

Air Separator: Microbubble type equal to Spirovent or Taco

Circulators: Grundfos, Taco, Armstrong...

Expansion tanks: Amtrol, Taco, B&G

etc. etc.


You may also allow for materials. Schedule 40 steel pipe with malleable iron fittings, Type L copper (type M for cost?).. even allow for Pex-Al-Pex given copper these days.

A small bucket of ideas, hope it is not too much.

Key is communication, I know you agree. A lot less of a hassle before things are installed.

Brad White_72

What they know and what they don't...

I was trying to deal with a situation where a large installation company sent a rep out for an estimate who was not familiar with a host of things that wallies would consider essential; that plus the scanty contract details made me look for some basics I'd want included before signing or even comparing that to other contracts. Didn't want ot hear after the job, "Oh, you wanted pumping AWAY?"

If the rep was not familiar, David... I'd start looking for another company- maybe that is just me At the same time, once the basic principles are known, we can bring them along...

Oh, I was not suggesting that you were micromanaging, rather that some contractors sometimes think that, especially when you know more than they do sometimes. We are all human, a natural reaction at first- JMHO.

S Ebels

I usually find

The detail of a contract is a good indication of the actual amount of time that was taken preparing your quote. It can be a pretty good key.

I lost a job by about $1,300 a couple seeks ago. It was for a basic forced air system in a ranch style home. I provided normal details regarding number and location of registers, heat loss numbers to back up my recommendation of a 60,000 btu furnace, type of thermostat, details for venting the water heater and dryer, gas piping etc.
The guy that beat my price quoted a 100,000 btu furnace and the quote simply said "heating system for new house with 100,000 btu furnace". That's all it said, then the price.

Based on that, the builder went with the other guy.

Some day's you really wonder..................I guess it's like Frank from Philly used to say; "Non Bastardi Carborundum"!

Translated that means "Don't let the b^$(^&d's wear you down"!

Ragu_4

David

I've been reading your posts of late and I am very impressed.

Are you planning on direct-venting an oil fired unit? If so then I would suggest to proceed with caution and ask around. Personally, I have stopped installing direct-vent on oil fired units. My feeling is that even though the units have received UL and CSA approvals, the real-world number of failures (at least in this part of Maine) has been astronomical, regardless of brand and regardless of installer. Good luck.

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D107

thanks, various options on the table

and thanks for your input. We would probably only direct vent a gas boiler. On another thread I posted, the Wall once again provided great info on the problems with power venting gas or oil.

Thanks again,

David

Mitch_6

Information is good but look at it from the installers side

while the big companies do have seperate sales and installers smaller one to five man shops are usually the same person installing as estimating or at least controlling the job.

When on site your list is great for conversation to see that the contractor is up to speed but given the vastly different systems and scenarios out there you will find it difficult to get a quote that spells out down to the individual nut and bolt just a small cut of my estimate is listed below. Most companies as mentioned in a prior E mail just say put in x btu boiler for y amount.

My estimate is two pages and spells out what we will and will not due plus the guarantee period and any line items.

1)Secure boiler for demolition and removal.
2)Supply and install new Weil McLain CGA PIDN boiler with new pumps, multizone relay, automatic feeder, air removal system, expansion tank, near boiler piping and controls.
3)Supply and install mechanical fresh air system for combustion air as required by code.
4)Meet with local plumbing inspector as required for inspection.

While it is refreshing to see a home owner so involved you don't want to scare someone off. The estimate should hit the basic points but most contractors are putting out more bids and on different systems than you may think and not only do they not get every job they look at but alot never happen since the home owners are not educated in the realistic cost.

If you want a specified engineered bid in righting you may have to pay for the extra time it takes to spell it all out.

Or at least keep your list for the conversation in the boiler room you will get the contractors attention that you are on the ball.

Good Luck
Mitch S.

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Plumdog_2

I too lose out

to the lowball bidder. The bid is short and sweet, but leaves out some of the details that will be included in the quoted price; sloppy workmanship, nagging leaks, incomplete design, impossible serviceability, poor fuel economy, and an overall look that will diminish the value of your property.

Unknown

everything but...

Just about everything about the fellow wallies say are true... Esp about if the comapny so large and they have seprated sale dept. and installers dept. You may have some commutation break down... I recalled one customer telling me that when she have problems with her building heat, this company comes over right away with a briefcase instead of toolbox to sell package deals and then service man to figure out the problems.... After spending so much money on same problem, her friend told her to call me and I troubleshooted it in 15 mins (zone valve) and repaired in less than hour.... Its your call, but don't be so nit picking in every details that drive a good boiler company away...

Plumdog_2

an entire era

passed me by, because I missed the Frank from Philly stuff. I went to the eye doctor, and lo and behold they had me peer thru a card with a tiny hole and I could see better! I'm going out to the truck right now and find some closet bolt covers.

D107

all good posts, thanks. And with internet, boiler manuals

are easier to come by. I've looked over a few and they provide alot of great info. (Though I know that some wallies have complained about their clarity and have probably been instrumental in getting the manufacturers to edit them.)

The two-page bid mentioned earlier would be enough for me; conversation could take care of the rest, and additional details could be added to the contract if it got that far.

And I would think that much of a written bid could be boilerplate that doesn't have to be started from scratch with each bid. In fact the bid itself could have some boilerplate in it that is meant to educate the customer and show off the knowledge of the installer. I was impressed with some of the find a pro websites on the wall which were really instructive.

As for the customers who go for the low bid where just the boiler/btu and price are quoted, may they end up on a suitable Jerry Springer segment.

Thanks,

David

singh

baxi??

What happened to the Baxi you recently had installed? if I remember correctly from your other posts.

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D107

wasn't me

Tony_23

apparently

a Baxi was merely discussed

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