E85 (Ethanol 85%) should we use this fuel?

S Ebels

From a usually unbiased and adequately researched source. Copy and paste in your address bar.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html

Ted_9

corn

I just started learning about this and wanted to start a discussion.

www.livegreengoyellow.com is where I started.

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S Ebels

Here's a couple facts

E85 doesn't have the btu content of gas or diesel. We used to use "alky" back when I was modifying 2 stroke motors. It burned faster but "cooler" than gas or other mixes. One of the basic rules of thumb was that the carb jets had to be about 20-25% larger to deliver the same "heat" as gas. Bottom line.....expect a noticeable fuel mileage hit with E85.

Alcohol based fuels burn very clean. On more than one occasion we had minor mishaps with fires. (Don't ask) The flame was translucent blue and you could barely see it. No residue when consumed.

It attracts water like a magnet, and it's a good solvent,it destroyed aluminum fuel tanks overnight. This is part of the problem all the fuel delivery companies are having right now. They have to keep the gasoline pipelines, tanks and delivery trucks on the road to meet current demand but before delivering any E85, ALL of their equipment touching the fuel has to be cleaned out or the Alky will clean it for them. Hence. it has to be shut down and cleaned. I would expect that a lot of folks will have unexpected icing problems in the fuel system of their vehicles this winter if they are carrying a little H2O in their tanks.

All in all, once the conversion pains are dealt with, I think it's a good thing because it's something we can supply ourselves and it's clean. Even if we can generate a reduction of only 1-2% in fossil fuel consumption for transportation purposes, that's still more than a few million barrels. Whatever we can get domestically, doesnt have to be bought from people that hate us. It'll also keep our money in circulation here instead of sending it overseas.

Patchogue Phil_29

fuel system crud

I have heard that it also loosens up any crud build up in the fuel system (tank, lines, filters) which the makes the engine run bad and often stall out.

Harold

All the studies I have seen say that the embedded energy in the alcohol is greater than that provided when used as fuel. And that embedded energy is from petroleum. As corn likker it works. It powers certain mountain populations. And the mason jars and jugs (although not stomach linings) are resistant to the corrosive effects.

There is also the issue of how much land would be required to make a significant difference in oil use. Rather more than we have.

Floyd

Gee that's funny....

got some farmer's 'round here that get paid to mow off their land once a year and NOT farm it.............................

HHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?????????????????


What's wrong with this picture????



Floyd

Boilerpro_5

I've read the same thing

When I was a student at IIT in Chicago at the Department of City and Regional Planning, using pure alcohol as a fuel had recently been studied and the energy needed for production and distribution rapidly ate up the energy of the alcohol provided. If I remember correctly, the recommended use for it was strictly in farm applications and that for the energy balance to be positive, a corn processing plant needed to be not more than about 50 miles (or less, going from memory here)from the source (the fields) to the use (the tractors, mainly). Another interesting fact also came out, the percentage of land that needed to be planted to grow the corn in order to supply the alcolhol to power the whole farms fuel usage was the same perecentage of the amount of land that needed to be planted to feed the horses that used to power the farm. Some things, apparently, never change no matter how "advanced" we become.

Boilerpro

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Tony Conner_2

A Bit In The Paper...

... here this morning about fertilizer being up 20% in cost this spring, because it has such a large energy component. This is on top of the diesel for running the equipment, power to the dairy barns, etc. Combine this with all the energy required for transporting the raw food products, all of the processing requirements, unbelievably huge industrial refrigeration systems at the processing plants, distribution trucking, and refrigerated displays at the stores...

The amount of energy required to get food from the farm to your table is spectacular. Get ready for food prices to take a nasty hop.

Xc8p2dC_2

Absolutley NOT

Unless you vehicle is designed to run on it or what is called duel fuel

Ethenol is a product that reduces octane but creates less emmissions>> there are differnt blends of E Gas and is determined by a percentage>> many newer vehciles do not need alot of octane so by switching to a "lite" mix will usually cause no harm, but by jumping the gun you could cause serious harm to you vehicle

Ron Schroeder

Ethanol INCREASES octane not REDUCES octane.

To get maximum effect from ethanol fuels, you need an engine with higher compression and an injection system that can take advantage of the added octane. You can run up to about E15 without engine mods but E85 needs engines designed for it.

Ethanol can have more energy in it than it takes to make it but the ratio is not as good as biodiesel. Ethanol can be a part of our energy solution but unfortunatly it can only be a small part. (at least it's better than fuel cells)

S Ebels

That was the main reason

That was why we used it in the two strokes. We ran some seriously high compression (calculated 13-14:1) in those motors and the Alky didn't detonate.

If you've ever watched the modified chain saw competition on Stihl's Tournament of Champions lumberjack show, that's what I used to build. All those motors are running alcohol.

Xc8p2dC_2

Ron, not exactly

What the E and Alky do is to have a greater content of oxygen which creates a more explosive burn with less hydrocarbons

Quote for Altfuels.org>>

Q: Can I use E85 (ethanol) in my gasoline vehicle?
A: Some automakers have recently been building E85 capability into all instances of certain of their models; for example, all 2003 DaimlerChrysler vehicles (cars and minivans) with their 3.3-liter V6 engine can run on E85. However, in general a vehicle must be tuned to use ethanol; its requirements for fuel-air mixture and spark timing, in particular, are significantly different from those for gasoline. The vehicles I mentioned above have sensors in their fuel lines to tell their engine computers what mixture of ethanol and gasoline is in their tanks, so the computer can tune the system to run properly on that mixture. If you try to put E85 in a vehicle not designed for it, it will run extremely lean, if it runs at all; I have heard of hotrodders "re-jetting" their carbureted 60's and 70's muscle-car engines to run on E85, but that means the cars can't run on gasoline without undoing the modifications! In addition, ethanol is somewhat more corrosive than gasoline, and it may damage the fuel system of a vehicle not designed for it, though I think all vehicles sold in the U.S. can run up to 10% ethanol (E10, or gasohol) without problems. So check your owner's manual, and don't put E85 in the tank unless the manual says the vehicle is designed for it; on the other hand, you may already have this capability and not know it!

Also see>> http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/infrastructure/refueling.html

Ron Schroeder

Ethanol is 113 octane.

The octane rating of ethanol is absolutly higher than regular gas. The octane rating of E85 is between 105 and 110. The oxygen content or btu content has nothing to do with octane rating. Octane rating is simply the anti knock index of fuel. Ethanol (or E85) actually burns slower and cooler than gasoline allowing for more spark advance. The higher octane rating also allows for higher compression ratio engines with more power (but less fuel economy) than similar sized gas engines.

Xc8p2dC_2

But it is achieved differently

with not the exact same result even thought the # is higher given it is mixed with different chemical properties

example >> If you drop a shot of wiskey in your beer [should be the official drink of the wall, Boilermaker lol]]]] Vs if you dropped a shot in a glass of soda, would you get buzzed the same, nope

Ron Schroeder

It IS the same.

The point is that that the higher octane rating E-fuel achieves the exact same anti-knock results as the same octane tating with petro-gasoline. That is the definition of Octane.

BTW,If you drop a shot of whiskey in a glass of wine, you would get buzzed the same. ;-)

thfurnitureguy_4

recycle

I read an article in Entrapenour(sp.???) about a kid running a recycleing plant. Started with AL and plastic juice containers. He needed a beter way to dispose of the old, out of date, juice to get the containers. Started making ethanol from the waste soda and fruit juice. We live in a sugar rich country. Why would we grow any first run ag.product for alcohol? We throw out tons of rotting fruit and soda each day??? Throw it in a vat with yeast, use solar to heat the distalate. Use ground water to condence it, you have nearly free energy and less crap in our rivers and lakes.

The cars that will burn ethanol are called flex fuel vehicles. Your standard cars will eat up the neoprine gaskets and any aluminum/ pot metal in the fuel system.
The crud comes from the water that lives in your gas tank full of rust, that now goes in to solution ( this is what is in dry gas additive)

Would love to have the time and money to develop a steam turbine hybrid that runs on alcohol.

Tony Conner_2

Steam...

... turbines just run on steam. It's the boiler that will need to fire alcohol. Boilers can fire almost anything combustible, if they're the right configuration, and set up properly. Turbines are expensive though, there's a TON of machining involved for the blades. You'll want this thing to be just ON almost all of the time. I'd suggest finding an old diesel welding machine if you want to try to make some biofuel and run it in something that will generate electricity. I think you'll find making biofuel out of spoiled vegetables & fruit pretty involved for what you get out of it, but best of luck.

jeff_51

one final thought

Brazil spent more than twenty years working on ethenol as a fuel for cars. They don't use it anymore. Nuff said?
another one of those good ideas that just didn't work. Maybe in another time. 'member the first flying wing? Didn't work then, sure does now

Larry (from OSHA)

Don't use it anymore?

From what I've seen, Brazilians are using ethanol more than ever.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/03/10/brazil.ethanol.example.ap/

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=6817

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0603250014mar25,1,657342.story

http://www.renewables2004.de/ppt/Presentation4-SessionIVB(11-12.30h)-LaRovere.pdf

There is some interesting info in the articles above. I think that all alternative fuels have significant hurdles to overcome, but there appear to be enough boosters of plant based fuels here in the Midwest that we will see much more of this.

Larry

S Ebels

Here's a rollicking good \"discussion\" on ethanol from another ..

There's a lot of good commentary in this link regarding the pros and cons of ethanol.These guys are cussing and discussing ethanol used in boats. (remember ethanol likes water?)

WARNING! The folks there are not quite as civil as we are here.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=101286&posts=31