Hydronic vs Electric

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Scale actually shifted this winter in my area.

Gas @ 1.48/therm and electric at 5¢ kwh put them even excepting the slightly higher municipal charges for electric. Even at condensing/modulating efficiency, electric space heaters were less expensive. A forced air electric boost became quite cost effective for me as well.

I can't imagine this situation continuing however. Gas is thankfully down about 25¢ therm and I suspect that electricity is getting ready to rise.

ScottMP

I have a developer

more like renovator who likes clean up buidlings and flip them. Not the type of work I like the most but a good steady customer.

We have had discussions before about whether he installs electric heat or a forced water system. I have always stood by the concept that Electric is cheaper upfront and more expensive in the long run. Thats actually what a guy flipping homes wants to here right ? Less money invested but the Electric home is not as desirable to a well informed buyer. He has in the past understood this and we have installed new heating system in the projects.

He told me this morning that he had read some articles that with gas/oil prices climbing that there have been improvements in the efficiency of electric equipment.

I still feel that the electric rates and with the equipment its just not a good investment.

Scott

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heatboy

It's much closer now............

with the rise in fossil fuels than ever before. So it does make more sense. I'm not sure the "investment" side should matter to you. If you can make your margins with electric, I gues, why not do electric?

Tony Conner_2

It's Unlikely...

... that there has been much in the way of efficiency improvements for electric resistance heating - it's always been almost 100% efficient, and that's the "lure". The "hook" is the cost per BTU. Compare the cost per BTU of gas/oil heat against electric - and be aware that with the "global warming" folks on the warpath, more and more electricity is being generated by burning gas. Pretty much the only time electrical BTUs are cheaper than gas/oil BTUs are if your electricity is generated by falling water.

Joe Brix

Some have rushed out

and switched to heat pumps. But I think many utilites had to file for rate increases last year that will see rate increases of 40-70% this year. Sure, some areas that are coal or nuke based will not be hard hit but since all share the grid, all will see somekind of price increase.

Brad White_9

Truisms about Electric Heat

Scott, what you say about first cost versus operating cost is essentially true. Electric baseboard is self-contained, gives individual room control.

It is also expensive to operate. Time was the multiplier was 3.0 times gas or oil, now that has narrowed. A 50,000 BTUH heat loss in Boston, with gas at $1.75 per therm (my latest bill average) would cost about $1,477 per year to heat if at 80% efficiency and $1,284 if 92% efficiency.

Same house on electric at $0.12 per kWH would cost $2,373, so a 60% to 84% increase. A better "heat" electric rate may help, but you would have to get down to 6.5 to 7.5 cents per kWH to be even with the gas systems.

Efficiency has not really changed if you are talking straight resistance. It is virtually 100% efficient but that fools no one. Today, that they have improved on that is not informed.

You are still paying for initial generation fuel, transport losses, equipment depreciation and the woman who phones you to tell you your bill payment is late.

The only way the efficiency is improved is with heat pumps, and you are getting away from "low first cost" when you start talking ductwork. If AC is in the offing, that is one thing.

When I was doing home inspections and came upon a developer's property (flipped for quick profit) and which had electric heat, I asked to see the heating bills. Too often they would produce the previous gas bill (the electric conversion being new with no history). My obligation was to inform the owner that their heating bills would be three times what they otherwise would be. At the time that was true... Often it resulted in a downward negotiation on the price to allow a hydronic BB system to be installed. What a waste and how short-sighted, IMHO.

My $0.02

Brad

ScottMP

Because

I dont' DO electric. Your right, its not my house and I don't care about the investment only in that if my developer makes money he buys more. We get the plumbing but I want to do the heat also.

Do YOU do electric ?

I know that answer.

Thanks for the responce

Scott

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ScottMP

Thanks Brad

I agree. I think that in some parts of the country it may be closer but here in N.E. it just dosn't add up.

Scott

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singh

a little of both

I know a KW is a KW , but has anyone done comparisons with electric boilers,supplying radiant in floor vs. electric baseboards.
I rid my electric baseboard heaters, put in radiant using a thermolec boiler with reset and my electric bills went down. I'm guessing there is a comfort factor there. Since t-stat a little lower. But I also upgraded windows, and added insulation so I really can't compae yet, plus I still use the woodstove.
I am in expensive .13cents/kw territory, but I will say I'm very pleased, I plan on adding some solar integration in the future, but in my opnion I'll never go propane or oil. not to mention boiler only cost me $600 compared to the thousands a mod/con would cost.


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Phil Deets_2

Fuel Choices

In my area, NW Pennsylvania Nat Gas = $1.64/therm @ 95% efficiency costs $16.38 per million Btu. Oil is $2.30/Gal @ 85% efficiency costs $19.33 per million Btu. Propane is $2.00/gallon @ 95% efficiency costs $23.01 per million Btu.
Electric is $.063 per kw @ 100% efficiency costs $18.17 per million Btu. A air to water heat pump with a COP of 3.08 @ 17 degrees costs $5.90 per million Btu.

My choice is the heat pump and it works great with my radiant systems.

Phil