Does this loop look right?

KAG

Zip ties?

Mark_46

Strange looking thing

For those with knowledge or install experience with the Munchkin please have a look at the attached pics. This install is not complete. But it just doesnt look right to me. Primary/secondary? Overall layout of the loop? And just ugly and sloppy, no? Any feedback is appreciated.

gerry gill

well, it does not look ugly

or sloopy to me..but i can't really tell from the pictures if there will be a flow problem thru the unit or not..i'm not a fan of zone valves..but most guys are..i'd like to see primary secondary piping..it eliminates any flow issues..but its not ugly..why do YOU think pipes are ugly?

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Steamhead (in transit)

It's not really primary-secondary

to do this, each secondary loop's feed and return would be right next to each other, and each loop would have its own circulator. When the secondary loop circ was off, no water would go thru the loop. In some P/S setups, the boiler is also connected to the primary loop by its own secondary loop and circ.

If zone valves will give all the needed flow to the radiation loops (Baseboard?) you could have one circ for all the zone valves feeding radiation, and a separate circ and loop for the indirect. The indirect should come first on the primary loop since it generally needs the hottest water.

For an excellent description on how primary-secondary piping works, get Dan's book "Primary-Secondary Piping Made Easy". You can order it on the Shop (Books and More) page of this site.

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EJW

For starters

the circ should be on the other side of the air scoop.

EJW

Ron Schroeder

I also believe

this style scoop should have 18 inches of straight pipe for more effecient air removal ie to get the air to top of pipe before entering the scoop.

Mark_46

Not at all

Gerry,

Thanks for your response.

No, I dont think pipibg is ugly. In fact, when a 'plant' is piped very neatly its a thing of beauty. In these pics, I've never seen a loop piped like this on a Munchkin. It looks like an old steam hartford loop! Secondly, its made of black pipe which I guess is ok but most Munchkins I've seen are done in copper/brass. Thirdly, not ONE pipe on the loop is plumb.

Mark_46

Not at all

Gerry,

Thanks for your response.

No, I dont think piping is ugly. In fact, when a 'plant' is piped very neatly its a thing of beauty. In these pics, I've never seen a loop piped like this on a Munchkin. It looks like an old steam hartford loop! Secondly, its made of black pipe which I guess is ok but most Munchkins I've seen are done in copper/brass. Thirdly, not ONE pipe on the loop is plumb.

Mark_46

Ah ha

EJW,

It's things like that Im concerned with...things I wouldn't be able to identify myself. Thanks for the info.

Mark_46

Bruce

Similar to EWJ response, it's things like this Im concerned with...things I can't identify myself. Thanks for the info

Bob Forand

HTP

Mark,

If you can get your hands on the installation manual, I am pretty sure they show different piping scenarios. Perhaps that is a place to start. Good luck...

Mark_46

True

Kevin,

Little things like that are what bother me. Neatness counts. Often 'the devil is in the details'! But more importantly if something small like that is questionable I wonder if bigger issues are looming?

Tony_23

Clueless

How is water supposed to flow out those zone valves then back into the same loop ? You won't get more than "ghost flow". The guy is obviously confused.

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[Deleted User]

Boiler loop

I like primary, secondary systems. Munchkin also has a boiler control that would give priority to your indirect water heater, let you program water heater temps on their digital display and include outdoor reset. The control is vision 1. The manual will give you some excellent diagrams to follow. Contact the wholesaler who supplied your boiler for a manual. You may have some issues with your current design.

Will_5

Confused

I thought I was missing something, there appears to be only one pump. This certainly wouldn't provide much, if any, flow through the zones. I don't think boiler flow is a issue here, but system flow sure appears to be.

Mark_46

Not sure I understand

but your question is intriuging, Tony. The return from the water coils is on the lower portion of the loop in pic 258.
If that isnt correct, could you explain why?

Mark_46

John

In another thread in this forum titled flow and head feet I am trying to measure flow to each load / through each circuit. I guess i wont be sure until I have those numbers.

FYI, the pump is a Taco 008 there is a 30 gallon SSU indirect and two water coils in the system.

RadPro_2

HTP drawing

Not sure if Dan allows this but here one drawing direct from the manufacturer's IO manual.

I also prefer true primary/secondary piping not shown.

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RadPro_2

HTP drawing

Not sure if Dan allows this but here one drawing direct from the manufacturer's IO manual.

I also prefer true primary/secondary piping not shown.

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RadPro_2

HTP drawing

Not sure if Dan allows this but here one drawing direct from the manufacturer's IO manual.

I also prefer true primary/secondary piping not shown.

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RadPro_2

HTP drawing

First of all, new modern piping techniques are far different than what "dad used to do". To the average consumer I can see where it looks completely wrong.

It looks to me like the installer followed HTP drawing 1A (retrofit w/vlvs). This is acceptable.

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-61.pdf [see pg 26]

I had to look twice but the valve just after the third zone valve is the key to this drawing. If he wasnt going by the print Im certain this valve would not have been installed. Without getting technical, water would tend to pump around the boiler loop, not the radiation w/o the balancing valve.

I agree with the other contributors about pump and air scoop placement. From a "perfect design" standpoint, You should pump away from - not towards - the expansion tank connection. For best air seperation, 18" of straight pipe upstream of scoop allows bubbles time to migrate to the top of pipe to get scooped. I dont see an urgency to repipe unless you've problems with air in the past and you need "better" air elimination technique.

I like to use the Vison-1 control and piping strategy when incorporating DHW with the Munchkin.



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RadPro_2

HTP drawing

First of all, new modern piping techniques are far different than what "dad used to do". To the average consumer I can see where it looks completely wrong.

It looks to me like the installer followed HTP drawing 1A (retrofit w/vlvs). This is acceptable.

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-61.pdf [see pg 26]

I had to look twice but the valve just after the third zone valve is the key to this drawing. If he wasnt going by the print Im certain this valve would not have been installed. Without getting technical, water would tend to pump around the boiler loop, not the radiation w/o the balancing valve. However, it must be set correctly.

I agree with the other contributors about pump and air scoop placement. From a "perfect design" standpoint, You should pump away from - not towards - the expansion tank connection. For best air seperation, 18" of straight pipe upstream of scoop allows bubbles time to migrate to the top of pipe to get scooped. I dont see an urgency to repipe unless you've problems with air in the past and you need "better" air elimination technique.

I like to use the Vison-1 control and piping strategy when incorporating DHW with the Munchkin.



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Mark_46

Radpro

Fully understand and agree that piping techniques are not what they used to be. That is part of what concerned me at first. Black pipe was used (lot of mass and weight hanging above the boiler) and it looks like a steam hartford loop to me ). Most Munchkins Ive seen are done with copper and the loop doesnt rise over the boiler. Personally I would have liked to see most of the loop and its components mounted on the wall behind the boiler...get all that weight off the boiler.

Also, not sure if you can tell from the pics, but the valve you mention after the third zone valve is a ball-type shut off valve. I agree with you that the water would tend to pump around the loop and never really flow to the connected loads. If that valve is supposed to stay closed (as it is now) why even have pipe from that point to where the returns are connect into the loop. In other words, the primary loop should not be infinite. No?

Tony_23

well.......

It's not really a question, more of a statement posed as a question

Look at what you have arranged there. Water flows thru the path of least resistance (head). Your water flow comes out of the boiler, thru circ, air eliminator, numerous tees (straight thru), and back into the boiler.

What forces the water into the branches (zones) ?

Absolutely NOTHING.

Think about it.

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Empire_2

In addition ...

The "Guard Dog" LWCO should be mounted on a vertical line above the boiler to assure cut out below that point of installation. Every state has it's version, but there I go again....;-) Gotta admit that digital cameras have come to the aid of people seeking help so that we all can see what they see......Saith the Lord...;-)

Mike T.

Getten near Friday and I had to quote something;-)

Mark_46

Hey Mike

Thanks, another one I wouldn't have caught. But I also hope the mislocation of the LWCO is something that would be discovered on inspection!