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Acclimating quarter saw

Kal Row
Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
and is going with engineered wood - and he's going to put down a 1/4" plywood before the engineered floor

has anyone used a crack isolation membrane as a sound absorber – as this is low-mass radiant – and even a slight variation in temp generates movement, he is worried about expansion/contraction noise and wants to allow the pex and transfer plates to move silently under the plywood?

i am going glue the pex in the transfer plates with the stuff designed for this application

Comments

  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    Acclimating quarter sawn

    Has anyone put down quarter-sawn wood flooring without laying it out on the heated surface for a few weeks??

    Got customer balking at the price of quarter sawn and the acclimating time loss, he is willing to eat the price but not the wait

    He also wants do away with the ½” plywood over the sleepers – so the floor consists of aluminized bubble wrap, sleepers with transfer plates, and pex, a sound isolation membrane and the quarter sawn flooring on top,

    has anyone done this ?
    what are the possible problems?
  • jim lockard
    jim lockard Member Posts: 1,059
    Why would

    you short cut the product. Shame that your customer will not wait a little longer to do it right. Do not know that you have to lay the flooring out but it should be stored where its going to be installed for at least 10 to 15 days. Best Wishes J.Lockard
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,981
    I'm thinking....

    Even longer. A month would be the minmum in my book. We work in an area that gets really humid in spring/summer and dry, very dry in the winter.

    Quarter sawn will adapt nicely, if acclimated long enough. Without the time, I'm guessing it will look like a floor from a flooded area in short time. Cups and bows will be the order of the day if it don't sit long enough !(don't try to bounce a ball on it..know what I mean?) JMHO. Chris
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Document it.

    > Even longer. A month would be the minmum in my

    > book. We work in an area that gets really humid

    > in spring/summer and dry, very dry in the

    > winter.

    >

    > Quarter sawn will adapt nicely, if

    > acclimated long enough. Without the time, I'm

    > guessing it will look like a floor from a flooded

    > area in short time. Cups and bows will be the

    > order of the day if it don't sit long enough

    > !(don't try to bounce a ball on it..know what I

    > mean?) JMHO. Chris



  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Document it.

    You recommended procedure A, the Homeowner refused and says do it this way. Write it down and make him sign it. Do it with witnesses there and have one or two of them sign the doc also. Then let him have his way if he still wants. You can't rush perfection.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Maybe it is acclimated already?

    > You recommended procedure A, the Homeowner

    > refused and says do it this way. Write it down

    > and make him sign it. Do it with witnesses there

    > and have one or two of them sign the doc also.

    > Then let him have his way if he still wants. You

    > can't rush perfection.





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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Maybe it is acclimated already?

    check it with a good moisture meter. If it was stored in the same climate that it is being installed in, it may be fine.

    Heated floors, mid summer, are hard to come by and the humidity has more to do with it than temperature anyways.

    hot rod


  • Being quarter sawn, the shrinkage factor is reduced considerably over flat sawn and cupping is near impossible, (What type of wood is it?) so if it is at a descent moisture level (as measured in the core of the wood, not in the surface) it will likely be ok. But I do agree with the other gent. Document it! Let him see that he is taking full responsability for making you vary from the procedure, you as a professional, recommend. And have it worded strongly for your protection. You know the drill, first they are cheap as hell, then they're the poor victims...
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    What about

    trying PAP instead if regular pex. It seems to go in, and stay in better than regular pex and has less expansion movement.

    Generally around here the floor installers use rosin paper or 5 lb felt between the plates and wood flooring.

    I'd worry that the 1/4 plywood will hide the tube location and risk nail punctures if it is a nail down flooring?

    With the paper slip sheets the installer can still feel and determine the tube and loop end locations.

    I'm not convinced the slip sheet is even needed. It mainly allows the installer the ease of sliding the flooring pieces around for quicker installation. I don't think it can handle expansion noise. This has more to do with the type of transfer plates, the tube, temperature changes and installation of the plates.

    PAP and constant circ or OD reset will minimize expansion noise. As will good extruded plates with a very tight tube fit.

    hot rod

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  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    this is a lose lose sit...

    the homeowner is the contractor, i am designing after the fact - he already has the pex and plates - at least for his cement/tile areas, he is using viega snap panels, so that will be easy - but the wood floor - is real hard to do on the cheap!!!

    as for pipe location - he will use a 3" brush with black paint over anywhere pex runs as he lays down the plywood,

    besides, engineered flooring is tongue'n'groove edge glued and floats - perhaps i don’t need sound isolation at all
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    What type of "engineered" flooring? Floating and glued sounds like Pergo or similar. The ones I've used recommended (essentially required) a thin foam-like underlayment.
  • Jerry_15
    Jerry_15 Member Posts: 379


    You got trouble Boyo, and it ain't gonna go away. I don't know what the use of 1/4" ply is, but if it's recommended by the manufacturer, get it all in writing. Nothing will stop a floor like that from creaking on start-up, especially the first start. It settles down quite a bit over time. How much noise is too much? How deep is the ocean, how high the moon. Double good luck on you, you're gonna need it. Before I'd use 1/4" ply I'd look a 1/4 Hardiliner cemant base for inder tile. Cement base, easy to work, won't warp if water gets in there somehow.
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    my very thought...


    i have half a mind to walk away - but that just it, i only have half a mind - the other half is in my heart and wants to help this guy

    cant even get a decent heat loss on that house - cause it split, and vault roofed, six ways to monday - i just hate doing avg heights - and each different roof section had a different r-value, it's never right - and try as i might i cant get 2 different heat loss programs to even get within 20% of each other - he is going to end up with larger boilers than needed, but at least i am using 2 Ultra’s which will do a great job of load matching, so there should be very little waste heat generated
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    that's the one...

    from the RPA guide
    question is, is that good enough to put right on top
    of the sleepers and plates or do i need another layer
    of wood to protect and isolate - forget what they recomend,
    i need first hand experiance what will give me a low r value and quietness
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    I've only used such for non-heating applications. Always used the recommended "padding". I'd consult the flooring manufacturer. RFH is common enough that they surely have recommendations.
  • Jerry_15
    Jerry_15 Member Posts: 379


    You're doing all the right stuff, and a job's a job, but don't help yourself to an ulcer in the process. Even full disclosure has a nasty habit of bumping into short-term memory loss. Good advice before, get it all in writing, get a witness. PS If he doesn't like noise, just wait till you fire up the boilers. I've had that surprise before, and you can't argue with someone about perceptions (Learned that from the ex the hard way, but it's served me well).
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