Overall Heating Efficiency Action Group........

John Ruhnke

Everyone,

Now you know the first step in inventing. Identifying the problems. The next step is to try and identify what the ideal finished product should look like and how it should function. The next time I post it will be about my dreams, visions and our future.

John Ruhnke

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John Ruhnke

Some problems...............

Hello Everyone,

I want to first talk about what sparked me to start this project. Many years ago I took a seminar on Veissmann boilers. I heard the teacher talk about some of the problems with AFUE. He said that the Veissman was much more efficient then American boilers. More efficient then the AFUE shows. He said AFUE has a lot of problems. I heard this over and over again from other sources over the years. If AFUE doesn't show how efficient boilers are then that is a big problem. Why? Because all of the American boiler manufacturers build there equipment to have higher AFUE numbers. They don't build the boiler to run efficiently in someones home.

That is a big BIG PROBLEM!!

Every year milions of development dollars are spent by manufacturers to build boilers with higher AFUE numbers. I believe they are spending this money in the wrong direction. The consumer is misinformed as to what is the best choice of equipment to install into someones home.

Buderus and Veismann pack there boilers with insulation so that they run more efficient in your home. American boilers are lightly insulated. Why? Because AFUE doesn't accounty properly for jacket loss's

Again this is a big problem.

I took a boiler tuning class from NCI. This class was taught by Jim Davis. I find his stuff to be revolutionary. Jim is one of my hero's. Jim taught me that the calculation used in the combustion anyliser was giving some false information. Jim taught me how to tune a boiler to run efficiently in someones house. He taught me the rules of combustion. The boilers are set up to run efficiently in a lab condition set up for AFUE. Set up to produce the highest AFUE numbers. Just in tunning the boiler properly, for the house I can save clients of mine 5 to 15% in fuel bills. Jim used to tune boilers for a living. Independent Energy Auditors used to follow him up with a field calculated before and after energy analysis. Jim got paid a percentage of the savings. He made good money doing this. His stuff works. So I tune Atmospheric boilers and I see no corolation between the AFUE rating and the actual efficiency I can tune boilers to.

More big problems!!!

AFUE is tested at 140 degrees. The standard boilers actually run at 180 degrees. They are much less efficient at 180 degrees then 140 degrees. They are running at roughly 10 to 15% less efficient in your home then the AFUE rating states. Condensing boilers are also tested at 140 degrees. The condensing boilers don't even condense until under 130 degrees. A condensing boiler hooked up to a low temp radiant system runs at much lower temps, 75 to 130 degrees sometimes if hooked with outdoor reset. In such a situation a condensing boiler runs about 10 to 30% more efficient then at AFUE conditions. But somehow AFUE has that boiler at 95% efficient at 140? I don't believe IT!! I bet at 140 a condensing boiler is much less efficient then 95% Because I know from the science that I learned for every 3 degrees dropped in water temps you get 1% in energy savings.

All of this adds up to big problems!!!

If you don't believe what I am telling you just look at MIke T's posts. He replaced his boiler at 80% efficiency with a condensing boiler that was running at 75 degrees to heat his house. Mike T monitored his house and found HUGE SAVINGS!! Something like 60%. Yet according to AFUE he saved only about 15%

Nothing adds up here with AFUE. I see AFUE as a HUGE PROBLEM!!

Then on top of that we have political adjustments made to energy efficiency calculations to throw the numbers off even further. I'm afraid to speak my mind here because the RPA's board might start to take actions against me again.

Proper Comparison is real important to technical development. The europeans are laughing at us.

I don't like to be laughed at and I am trying to do something about it!!!

A lot of what I wrote are based on theories of mine. I want to do some field tests to find out what is really happening.

I want to develop some proper comparison methods. This will allow American manufacturers to work at the right things. Like making boilers run more efficiently in your home instead of working more efficiently in some AFUE lab test.

We need some proper comparison!!!
John Ruhnke



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DanHolohan

You can speak your mind here, John.

What would you like people to do?

John Ruhnke

Inventors are problem solvers...

Dan,

Inventors are problem solvers. That is what they do best. The first step is to search the industry for some of the biggest problems and then find solutions. Sometimes we can patent those solutions if we are lucky. Another big problem is that no one can compare the efficiency of radiant heat with hot air heat accuratly enough. I have been working on these two problems in my spare time for for a few years. My spare time is much smaller then it was 5 years ago before my first child was born. Things are dragging along slowly. I spent a lot of time writing a Grant proposal a few years back but that failed. There was no solisitation to match my project. The first step is to get the DOE to write a solicitation and this ia a dificult step. I do have a patent pending. I feel that my imagination holds a lot of the solutions. I am now trying to get somebody to just fund the test setup of one house. After we collect the info we can find someone to write the software later. In the Grant I wanted to test ten houses so we could compare different systems. Now I feel it is better to take baby steps. With one house we can find out if the concept works. We can also adjust our test methods so we can do things better the second time around. No need to actually compare at first.

What I want people to do is to join the action group. You don't have to do anything at all. Just monitor e-mails and stuff. You don't even have to post. I just need names. The more names we have the more seriously the DOE will take with us. Of course any activity that you find time for is great. Posting replys in future discussions will help all of us to learn. At first we just need to learn a few things. Discussion is a great way to learn. I want to start a discussion list.

John Ruhnke

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keith

altering efficiencies

John,

Thanks for raising the questions.

As a contractor I have reservations about setting up burners contrary to the manufactorurs data. It leaves me feeling open for liability issues.

As a consumer it makes me insane to think that politics play's a roll in the rating of units. With the current price of energy the least the goverment should be able to provide is legitimate information for comparison purposes.

Keith

Paul Pollets

Making Changes

John, in my humble opinion, the AFUE standard and boiler ratings/true efficiencies have to come from a powerful group like ASHRAE. ASHRAE has the power, resources, finances and lobbying to make it happen. Other groups do not.

Boiler manufacturers in N. America do not want the ratings or the scorecard to change...for obvious reasons. Their equipment will be proven to score much lower than stated in glossy brochures.

You may want to consider making changes through ASHRAE. The politics of AFUE are daunting and serious changes will be hard to accomplish without linkage to the engineering community.

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DanHolohan

But then,

I remember when people told me that I would never be able to get contractors to move their circulators from the return to the supply side. It's amazing what a book can do, or an Internet website.

One person can make a difference. Look at the difference you've made? ;-)

I say bring it on. HeatingHelp.com is read by thousands every day. Some of those readers are even members of ASHRAE.

Maybe we need an Energy Conservation room here on the Wall.

Paul Pollets

Thanks...

I'd like to think that I've made a difference, but I sympathize with JR, I've plucked more than a few arrows from my backside.

It's funny that 10 years later, there's more Euro sytems being installed with every manufacturer copying the German technology. (Or using Euro components)

Moving the pump to the supply side...good analogy. On the other hand, I see "overpumping" as a serious design issue. Maybe they took you too seriously.

Your next book should be: "How to do it with 1 pump"

The pump manufacturers love you, though.

Maybe a grass roots effort will bring the changes desired by JR. OK then, Bring it On!!



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David Van Wickler_3

I've found

that there will always be people who honestly believe that things can't be done, and I think that they are absolutely right in their own minds. I don't hang around these people because they can win you over, given enough time.

I like JR's spirit. He's positive and he's on a mission.

One person can make a difference.

Tony Conner_2

And...

... the PROPER boiler eff calc is SO SIMPLE. Net heat out divided by heat input over the same time period, times 100.

Rate the boilers in a lab with the proper instrumentation, then dial the burners in as part of the field installation. That's how it's done with industrial boilers, and there's absolutely no technical reason for it not to be done with domestic units. It would give contractors and homeowners an apples-to-apples comparison for steam, hot water and forced air. Oh, wait ... I think I just identified the "problem"

Unknown

AFUE

Points well taken by all of ur comments and things will/have to be change reagarding the afue ratings.. I had customers asked me if the AFUE stickers are really true? I asked them if they beilieve the mileages rating on the epa stickers on new cars? No way, they say... Told them same thing with the AFUE as it all depends on the installions/situataions, etc,etc...

John Ruhnke

Adjusting boilers.......

Keith,

There is a lot of adjustment that I can do and stay within the manufacturers specs. I try not to change the specs. I would never change the specs unless the boiler is producing a dangerous situation and I would never do that without notifying the client first.

Once I had a situation of rising CO. Rising CO is a sign of flue gas spillage. It was winter and I didn't want to leave the client without heat. I tried everything to adjust the burners and gas valve and that didn't help. So I closed off the vent dampner and installed a double barometric. This gave the boiler much better flow. After I did that I was not only able to fix the problem but I was able to dial in the burner and get much better efficiency saving the client about 10% in fuel bills.

John Ruhnke

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John Ruhnke

Simple to do too.

Tony,

All you need is a flow meter leading to the boiler and a btu meter tied to the feed and return.

Whalla!!!!

You know the boiler efficiency. This of course is best if you add up the whole years worth of and average it per hour or so. Efficiency changes. Efficiency is better in the winter months when the boiler is at full capacity.

Easy to do. Boiler efficiency has been around for a while.

JR

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

John: Something that I will NEVER forget in a reply to one of my messages here came from a man who said he was a formally and highly trained heating engineer.

He called TRVs "Mickey Mouse". He said his professors taught him this--that TRVs were nothing more than a bandaid for poorly engineered systems and that proper engineering made them unnecessary.

BUNK! With that attitude, it's no freaking wonder that many people have such a difficult time understanding modulating control of an entire system.

I know full well that system modulation is a concept that's difficult to grasp.

Think about tuning an engine so that torque is maximized and fuel consumption minimized regardless of the engine RPM or speed of the car without shifting gears.

John Ruhnke

We should apply for a Grant on boiler efficiency!!!!

Hey I got a great idea. Lets apply for a grant on boiler efficency alone. It gets us in the door with the DOE. No one will argue the effectiveness. It would be easier to convince them on that one. For $350,000.00 we could install a bunch of flow and btu meters in a bunch of different houses and get easy results. We could do the installations and get a college to monitor and verify calibration so no one says we fixed the tests. I think we could show them that AFUE isn't accurate enough for hydronics easily.

After good results with boiler efficiency maybe then they would open there ears to Overall Heating Efficiency.

JR

JR

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scott inM.E.

very motivating....

John, I had an average day doing annual service today, and after reading your post I have a 2nd wind. Your saying what I also have heard and seen.
I have a buderus in my home and have been to viessmann for 1 of three training sesson's this year. Three pass boiler's don't hide number's, they produce lower fuel bill's. You can tweek most standard boiler's to show better eff., but higher co reading's usually show up, that's not clean burning.
Interesting subject, seeing that we deal with it every day. Pre purge/post purge has helped on the newer boiler/burner combo's, replacing old beckett's with the new NX would make afue #'s more believable.

John Ruhnke

With the RPA.....

When I was with the RPA I kind of thought in this direction but if you tested just the boilers you would have no radiant information.

I am no longer with the RPA so I don't need to worry!!

JR

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John Ruhnke

TRV's are great

Mike T,

I love TRV's.

JR

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Have you yet combined them with a modulating boiler and driven by a single variable-speed circulator?

S Ebels

john

You have just put into words why a modulating/condensing boiler showing an AFUE increase of only 5-10% will actually reduce fuel bills by 30-40%

"Efficiency is better in the winter months when the boiler is at full capacity."

Full capacity = continuous fire. This holds true whether the boiler is firing at minimum rate or maximum. The point is that it's on all the time. Even the F/A manufacturers are catching on to this.

We all just have to keep beating the efficiency drum. The more of these high efficiency systems we get out in the real world, the more people will hear about them and request them. Spiraling energy prices will prove to be a powerful partner in changing the "eating habits" of commonly encountered heating systems and the minds of the consumer's buying them.

Tony Conner

It Would Be...

... pretty expensive to meter every single furnace, fired unit heater, steam & hot water boiler, etc. Steam metering in particular is tricky business. I'd be happy enough with the published efficiencies being done using the exact same boring old boiler efficiency method, regardless of the type of appliance or fuel. You'd still need to have standardized conditions under which the tests would be run - there is no complete escape from "... for comparison purposes only - your mileage may vary."

On big industrial steam boilers with modulating burners, there's not much of a difference in eff with load variations. In fact, we noticed that over 75% load, the boiler eff actually started to drop off slightly. The steam metering on these boilers was the best I've ever seen. Most steam meters have pretty poor accuracy and lousy turndown. You really have to work at metering steam properly.

GMcD

Exergy

The Euros are alredy doing "whole system" energy ratings using the exergy analysis. Go to this website:

http://www.lowex.net/

And surf around. Some really good bathroom reading at:

http://www.lowex.net/english/inside/guidebook.html

North American rating systems are for and by the manufacturers, and it's a "how low can you go" and still meet the mediocre Codes we have here. Not to slag all the manufacturers of heating equipment, it's an industry inertia thing, there ARE some good guys out there trying to do a better job, but the bean counters with "shareholder value" establishing the ground rules is really the impediment.

Mad Dog_2

This is a very pertinent and important subject

Let it rip!!!! Mad Dog

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John Ruhnke

Not every boiler.........

Tony,

You don't need to do every boiler. All you need to do is 10 to 50 or so. Enough so that you can see some trends. Racing helped to build better cars in detroit. All you need to do is monitor and improve some systems. Then you publish information for other contractors to follow. This should be ongoing, year after year.

JR

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John Ruhnke

Very good stuff........

Geoff,

I read through this. It sounds like simulation software. The DOE has some software like that to. This is the first time that I have seen a european version. I would love to learn more.

JR

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John Ruhnke

The Dept of Energy needs you!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone,

The Dept of Energy needs you and I. Look at what happened to AFUE. Billions were spent on it. Look at what we know. We can do a better job then the DOE. Now look deep into your hearts. Together if we had the same type of backing we could have done it better. If we had 1/10th the backing we could have done it better. Hydronics is a small fraction of the American market. That is why AFUE works so poorly with hydronics. I think AFUE favors hot air because the hot air manufacturers want it to be that way. AFUE may be work better with hot air. I truely believe that a properly designed hydronic system will blow away hot air in efficiency. We need to take matters into are own hands. We need to stand tall and stand together. Tell the DOE to stop kidding the world.

WE WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH!!!

LETS SHOVE THE TRUTH DOWN THERE THROATS WETHER THEY WANT TO HERE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

We need to be an organized political force of strength that can influence the DOE.

One way or another we have to force them to involve us!!!

Don't take no for an answer!!!

We can do it!!

John Ruhnke
JR@ComfortableHeat.com

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John Ruhnke

A little over the top.......

Alright I know I was a little over the top. Look if we can just get our foot in the door. If we can just start to make a relationship with some DOE people. All we need to do is to start doing some grant work to show them what we are capable of doing. Once they see small progress then we sart applying for Grants on more complicated projects.

I know we can't get agressive. I just said the above post to try and motivate you. We can't use that same aproach on the DOE or we will drive them away. I want you to feel the importance here and help me gain some control for us.

JR

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Weezbo

good read .

there is also a rather large group of countries involved in a somewhat similar reasearch project that is world wide with each participating country resposible for one of four aspects of the research ...it is regional and it is basically what will our childrens children have in the sence of habitable dwellings in certain areas of the world ,within and in the outskirts and countryside of towns cities and super cities...

Glen

Not so John -

and this is the prefect forum for this train of thought. I too believe AFUE has little to do with what real life experiences and examples in the field show us. One Hutterite colony - that regardless of what the analyser says - measures every drop of condensate out of their Vertomats. The plumber carefully calculates gas used in comparison to the pre viessmann boiler. That number is much greater than the 10% difference in the literature. You are bang on when you bring to our attention the glaring problems with "an industry standard" method of testing.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

I'm with you John

As a member of the action group I read the e-mails, and I didn't find them offensive or even politicially incorrect. I didn't think the energy group should be disbanded because of it. I hope you move on in your quest of Overall Efficiency without the R.P.A. panel. The energy situtation will require a lot of people working on it from every angle, and conservation may be the best bet, in the short term, to help quench our thrist for oil. Let's all pull together in the same direction. I support you 100% and will help you any way I can. John is passionate yes, but with the energy prices and shortages we are facing, I'm surprised more of you don't share his passion. Bob Gagnon

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