Church heating

Bill Julian

Mike

Thanks for the reply. I think hot water is the best way to go using the J series which completely slipped my mind! But I think it should be zoned off even though it is one main room, what do you think? I think the water will cool too much by the time it reached the end of the zone being about 250 feet all told radiation and piping. How much is this stuff anyway? I will check tomorrow with my supplier but I am curious about the costs

Bill Julian

CHURCH HEATING

I am a plumbing contractor and have installed heating before but not this size. I have a church that requires 280,000 BTUS of heat in the main santuary, a large amount of heat according to the heat loss done by my supplier. The ceilings are about 30 feet high which is why the btu's are needed and so high.
I have approx 200 feet of wall space to put baseboard heat but the calculations come out to be around 483 feet of baseboard using copper or cast iron at about 600 btus/ft. What are my other options since I want to go hot water and not hot air which is what is there now? Is there another media I can use while using a hot water system?
What about Sterling Slimline? Wall units are in the question but will they be enough and how many?
Thanks

Unknown

got basement?

Can u combine bothe underfloor and commerical radatiors in this church? What boiiler are u doing? Read about Dan's church in last month(?) P&M magizine...

JK_4

blower assisted

At a very large church in NYC we installed units with blowers built into the cabinets as this made the units so that they were not hot enough to burn someone brushing against them and also forced the circulation out much further in to the center of the large room where there was no close radiation. I don't recall which manufacturer but let me know if you can't find any and I'll look up the old file for you.

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Tony_23

Look at

Sterling Senior bbd.

Most mfgs produce a high output, commercial bbd also.

Look around, you'll find something.

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Christian Egli_2

Miraculous multiplication of heat

With high ceilings, radiation is the way to go. Good call.

Here are some ideas:

The reduced amount of baseboard radiation makes this a call for steam. Steam is more powerful than water and thus you'd need only a reduced amount of baseboard. Add the fact that a steam install is real easy totally unobtrusive and requires at best no electric pumps at all, you may have the ideal solution for your church.

Steam has the further advantage to be quick to come on. It also goes cold real fast, faster than water systems. A church typically needs a little blast of heat to get rid of the chill when the congregation enters then, you soon need to stop heating because things get hot all on their own when the sermon gets rolling. Opening a window would be a waste of energy, no?

On the hot water front

To add the necessary radiation to your space limited baseboard, perhaps you can add a free standing radiator somewhere. You could also install under-pew tubes such as I found them in this St Martin post:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=241117&_#Message241117

How about redundancy

Your church already has forced air. Could you keep that? and add the hot water baseboard on top. The idea being that for most of the season the limited radiation might be enough, and for quick start up heat in the morning, a brief burst of hot air might bring temperature up. Plus, with two systems, the chance of both breaking down on the same Sunday is less likely.

Dan Holohan's column on the church with new radiant floor heat is great as usual. He points out the problems caused by overheating, which is a catastrophe for fuel efficiency (more so than any gain in boiler efficiency ratings) and, on top of that, a calamity for your comfort.

In any scenario, a smart control system is worth it.

Happy piping

S Ebels

Panel Rads

Might be a nice option to offer them. Very quiet compared to baseboard starting to tick away in the middle of a prayer. Lot's more btu's per lineal foot than baseboard.

Go here: www.hydronicalternatives.com

check out the Radson Integra line. When you call them, Paul or one of the guys there can give you all the info you need for piping and control setup. Tell Paul that Steve Ebels sent you his way. Great people to deal with.

Bill Julian

Steam

Thanks guys. I have read each of your posts that seem very helpful but still unsure which way to go. The new boiler and most remote steam radiator (should I go steam) would be approx 70 feet apart. This length seems a little far don't you think? I'm open for detailed discussion.

Bill J

Christian Egli_2

It's a sprint for steam and a whole marathon for water.

Steam travels very fast, 70 ft is nothing, 300 ft, 2000 ft are all within easy reach of the boiler. Water, on the other hand, needs a harder push the farther you go.

Wet and dry returns, like the ordinary sewer lines, can take you far away as well.

Do you mean to say, there is already some steam in this building? or somewhere near? If so, your quest has been answered.

Bill Julian

Christian

Nice name by the way. Thanks for that info although I knew that info. I am a little concerned about condensat back to the boiler. Will steam traps be needed. Also, the btu load is 280,000 I am wondering what requirements may be needed in terms of Baseboard radiation using cast iron baseray (Burnham). Thanks a bunch

Mike E_2

use high output baseboard

> I am a plumbing contractor and have installed

> heating before but not this size. I have a church

> that requires 280,000 BTUS of heat in the main

> santuary, a large amount of heat according to the

> heat loss done by my supplier. The ceilings are

> about 30 feet high which is why the btu's are

> needed and so high. I have approx 200 feet of

> wall space to put baseboard heat but the

> calculations come out to be around 483 feet of

> baseboard using copper or cast iron at about 600

> btus/ft. What are my other options since I want

> to go hot water and not hot air which is what is

> there now? Is there another media I can use while

> using a hot water system? What about Sterling

> Slimline? Wall units are in the question but will

> they be enough and how many? Thanks

Mike E_2

use high output baseboard

Most baseboard companies have high output commercial baseboard lines. You could get a 3 tier line such as Slant Fin J series. http://www.slantfin.com/comfin/jseries.html

This has an output of 2500 BTU per foot at 180 degrees.

Michael

Steamhead (in transit)

If you go steam

and use anything other than cast-iron radiators it would have to be 2-pipe. But if your "A" and "B" dimensions are high enough you won't need any kind of pumped return.

You can avoid using traps on the mains by dripping them into a gravity wet return. You can avoid using traps on the radiation by providing orifices on the inlets so incoming steam will not completely fill the radiation if the pressure is kept lower than the orifices' design capacity. A step-firing or modulating burner, outdoor reset and radiator TRVs would add flexibility.

You'll need vents on the steam mains and dry returns, but if you size them properly the steam will get to the end of the system in about a minute.

Lastly, when you get to join the Dead Men they will welcome you as one of their own.

Where are you and this job located?

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Arthur

Church heating

What about a pipe coil under each pew, Would have to be hot water otherwise might burn some old dear or some kid.

kevin coppinger_4

A lot of good ideas ....

here...If I were doing it I would look at ser. 33 panel rad from Buderus. Homerun each radiator to few manifolds around the room and run the whole zone off of a 2107 Buderus control using a bfu room sensor. the 33 series run 36" x 118" X 6" down to 12" x 16"x6"... break it up to fit your needs...kpc

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Bill Julian

Kevin

I hear ya. 280,000 btu's is quite abit of radiation don't you think. Each radiator has to be home runned? Buderus must make a control manifold of sorts for this. I have about 130' of wall space and 30 foot ceilings to overcome, the heat loss came in at 280,000 btus. Thanks

kevin coppinger_4

No, you ...

have to home run each one but it gives you greater flexability. I think that is better than a monoflow set up or reverse and return. Less pressure drop and pex is cheaper/faster to run instead or all the copper.
A 36" x 118" 33series rad is 45,000 btu, a 36x 79" is 30,000 btu (you would only need 10)...just another option. kpc

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Barbarossa

Whats best for the Church?

The most important thing you can do for the church is to consider the occupancy schedule and there utilization of the facility. The fixed costs associated with the operation of churches are the biggest burden financially. The comment was made previously as regards a “quick heat up and shutdown” that along with a deep setback can save much more money the installed cost of any system. Steam with forced convection is not out of the question nor other options. Find out what they really need.

Joe Brix

Fan coils

sound like the best solution for rapid warm ups with hydronics. Floor mounted units will provide enough heat from natural convection without the fans on to help maintain a min temp level. Home running a few units might be more economical then piping many sections of HO BB.

S Ebels

Joe

I've always wondered if fan coils or forced air of any type is truly faster than straight hydronic heat. (rads or BB) Assuming the heat emitted is the same, can there actually be any difference? Put another way if you have a fan coil or a furnace capable of cranking out 80,000 btu's for example and a radiator(s) that carry the same output, it doesn't seem that either one would hold and edge in heating "speed". I think the difference is psychological because a person can really "feel" the hot air coming from a F/A register. A radiator or baseboard could be dumping the same amount of btu's into a room but they just don't blast you in the face with it. Another thing that enters into it is that most F/A systems are waaaayy oversized.

True or not?

Joe Brix

You're right

but we know most churches are empty most of the day, maybe a morning service or funeral during the week and several services and weddings on weekends. With pure convection or raidiant floor, there's an issue with set back. I would think most would still believe there's no sense keeping the whole structure @ 65° 24x7 so you can bring it up to 68° with a few hours notice. Maybe BB or radiate to maintain the min temp and a hydro-air coil in the AC ductwork for a quick warm air boost?

hr

Another church project with panel rads

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/d1612b83b80d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

By several of our industry's finest.

hot rod

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