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There can be no doubt where we are heading
leo g_13
Member Posts: 435
this sounds like a very interesting project to watch! As you are probably aware, that part of the world can get VERY cold during the winter. I would hazard to guess that they went all air for the benifit of the cooling in the summer. Maybe we'll have to give the Alberta Hydronics Board a heads up on this, and see if they can't get them to go fully "Euro" on the next one with hydronic heating and cooling!
Leo G
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Leo G
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Comments
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Energy as a weapon of trade
Read this article. Forget about global warming. Forget about "peak oil". Never mind "Big Oil" as in US or internationaly owned companies. None of those things enter into what the underllying problem is with world energy supplies. The issue that is going to decide the fate of nations and economies in the future is who controls the oil. Sadly, we, being the US nationaly and US based companies control very little of the known reserves as this article illustrates.
I think our heads have been "in the sand" or inserted firmly "where the sun don't shine" for too long and we as a nation are going to have to pay the piper in the near future. I'm not being fatalistic here, just realistic. As long as we rely on others for our energy security as a nation, we are incapable of autonomous decisions, we have lost our independence. JMHO
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12617717/site/newsweek/
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Well, there is not enough energy on US soil; oil wells in Alaska won't make any aignificant difference.
What we need to do is control the countries that have the oil. Our Leader has made a good start by taking over Iraq, and next he will certain attack Iran. Once he does that, the Gulf States are going to be quite easy. That should do it, dontcha think? Or do we need to take Venezuela too? If we need to, we will. We are not going to stand by and watch our independence being taken away by other independent countries.
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"Reality has a well-known liberal bias."--Stephen Colbert, to George Bush's face at the White House Correspondents' Dinner, 4/29/060 -
I"m guessing that was sarcastic, since you're talking about world war III, right?0 -
I agree
that we are in for a bumpy ride. We as a nation tend to pull togather at the last minute to divert disaster. I just wonder if we have had too many "me" generations for this to happen now. It seems to be all about money and controll.
We should strive to be as effecient as possible so when things get out of controll we have alternatives to even things out.
Gary from Granville0 -
Plenty of Energy in Our Country
We have the largest , highest grade coal fields in the world. So we kill a few pike in the North Country...
PS No effence Tony
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Americans are Very Good at Keeping Their Heads in the Sand
Since WW-II they've gone deeper and deeper as more and more realities of the situation WE have created are ignored.
We need leaders with the will to tell people what many do not want to hear--not just complacencies while the powerful scheme, conspire and manipulate. The powerful are not stupid and their heads are CERTAINLY not in the sand--they try to think to the future and use their influence to increase the probability of their vision.
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This is not a political topic
It's meant to "spread the alarm" (think Paul Revere) and get people thinking about their alternatives when a "what if" event happens. Obviously, this would be slanted toward a discussion involving heating ones home or business on this forum.0 -
It shouldn't be such a topic but part of having your head in the sand is the denial of individual responsibility and reliance on "others" to solve problems--and we all know who those "others" usually are...
Until people accept responsibility, modify their attitudes and realize that enough small changes DO make big change, the situation will only grow worse.
Every improvement we've made since the last energy crisis, has been more than offset by seductive marketing and decisions by every level of government that only increases our reliance on and competition for dwindling resources.
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I Can Hardly...
... throw rocks when I've been posting that coal/nuke are the only real options for large scale power production.
There's been some decent improvement regarding coal burning over the last number of years. Burn it as cleanly as reasonably possible, and that's about as good as it'll get until some new technology shows up.0 -
Had Tesla been allowed to complete Wardenclyffe, the world today would be quite different.
The concept is solar, but instead of using the power of the sun as it strikes the surface, it would have opened a gateway to the upper atmosphere where solar power is unimaginable.0 -
You can count on America...
Think positive. As Winston Churchill observed, "You can count on America to do the right thing. Once it has exhausted all other alternatives".
bd0 -
Paul Revere only rode 19 miles. Israel Bissel rode 345 miles to sound the alarm. Who gets the credit??
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, in 1860, realized that America was in need of a patriotic hero, to reunite the states and prevent a civil war, which still occured.
Either way, Longfellow needed a name that sounded like a true American hero. He finally decided that Paul Revere had a heroic name compared to Israel Bissel, and thus Revere was chosen as the man who warned the colonies
Blame whomever you want, in the end it is all us!!!
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Steve
The fact is there is so much energy saving technology presently available that simply is not utilized. We still have so many people in our profession who will not loosen their grip on the 1950's technology. In regards to the other E85 post, I read that scientists have now been able to duplicate the (enzyme?) that will allow things like corn cobs and other waste products to be used for ethanol production. Not just using the direct crop to make it.
We must find a way to loosen the strangle hold fossil fuels have on us. If for no other reason and probably the most important one, alot of the money that is spent with the OPEC countries finds its way into the hands of terrorists who would like to see the USA gone. I certainly would like to stop the flow of money to people who hate us.
We can point alot of fingers at who we think is responsible for this energy mess. The blame can start with all the consumers in this country who drive the market. We can do our part as a HVAC contractor and offer the highest efficiency equipment with appropriate designs to go with it.
I know you are not trying to start a political discussion here and I am trying to respect that. But there are some really deep issues here that simply will not let the winds of change blow freely.
P.S. I know from seeing your work that you are doing your best in providing the high efficiency equipment that does make a difference in our countrys overall energy consumption.
Darin0 -
I agree
energy saving is probably the single item with the greatest impact on energy consumption. I look at all the huge lighting fixtures on highways in the strangest locations. The new and used car lots that are daylight lit all night. In our town there are some 60 - 250 watt Acorn lights along a walkway on all night. A timer would save over $4000 a year. Installing appropriately designed 100 or 150 watt watt fixtures that shine on the walkway instead of up to the sky would cut the energy use by about 2/3. And this is just a small example of not using the correctly designed and already available lamp fixture. The mind boggles.0 -
Hmmm
I just thought of something I never had before. If they can make synthetic motor oil, why can't they make synthetic diesel or something?
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I am doing my best to think positive.
The US has changed much since Churchill's day. The industry that built our country has been declining for decades. We still work--and work hard--but that work has changed character.
Trade work used to be considered honorable--even noble--and people took pride in producing things that would outlast their own life. They knew they wouldn't get rich, but they also knew that they could live quite well with much less of the genuine hardship suffered by their grandfathers.
Now trade work is "beneath" us. Thankfully most at The Wall are still compelled by true craftsmanship, but you need only look at US census data to realize that such is a dying breed.
In VERY recent generations, if our clothing wasn't made in the house it was at least made in our country. Now our bulging closets are filled with clothing produced by virtual slaves in far-off places.
I challenge you to find underwear, socks, a towel or a sheet made in the US.
Black steel and brass are SOON to follow.
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The point
The point that I think all of us reading that article can assume, is that the days of cheap energy (in any form) are pretty much done. With supply tracking demand so closely, it only takes one country going ballistic to upset the worldwide oil market.
I couldn't agree more that the number one thing we can do is conserve. That can be done in a host of different ways that I won't even begin to list.
The point you make about installing the highest efficiency heating system possible is very true. The trouble is that very few consumers will take that path at crunch time. They are too short sighted and think that there will be some "magic bullet" or that fuel and electric costs will drop. Oh sure, oil will tick down a few bucks maybe even drop into the 40-50/barrel range again........for a while. The fact of the matter is that those days are pretty much gone for good unless bird flu wipes out about 30% of the world's population. (a truly heinous, moribund thought but I suppose it's possible)
People have to start thinking long term but the vast majority don't see the need as yet. The folks that are investing in ho-hum HVAC systems and run of the mill insulation will be cursing themselves 5-10 years from now. I have a classic example sitting on the desk right now. I'm working on a couple heat losses for new houses as I pop in and out of this conversation. One of the houses is using 2x4 walls with F-glass insulation in the walls and ceiling, 2,800 sq ft. Talked to the HO and tried to get him to think radiant or a GSHP. Nope, too expensive, they'd have to cut out some "other" areas of interest in their new home. The heat load came out to just over 27 btu's per sq ft. I consider that to be a hideous abomination for new construction but........what do I know, the builder says it'll do just fine...
The other is at least 2x6 with cellulose but they won't hear of anything other than a standard 90% furnace with A/C on it. "Just give us the basic system otherwise we won't be able to afford the house. WELL DUH!!! I wanted to tell them they won't be able to afford the house in a few years anyhow because they won't be able to pay the king's ransom required to heat and cool the place. But.......I'm just the heating guy and I'm trying to sell them a bill of goods..........
It's tough to keep trying "the faith" in a world full of this Neanderthal mentality........
On another note, I just sold two Vitodens/VS AHU's/panel rad systems. I was quoting against two other contractors going in with pretty much exact replacement for the existing F/A setup. I didn't even give the building owner a price on the standard system. I told them it wasn't in their best interest over the long haul and they agreed but they didn't know of any alternatives. So I showed them the Vito's and all that good stuff, and told them about places that we had cut fuel and electric costs by 35-45%. They went for it.
Here's the interesting part. The customer is a BANK! An institution that lives and dies by payback!! My proposal was over twice what the other bids were and they bought it!!! That intrigued me so I asked the dude at our second meeting (he oversees maint, repair and utilities at 22 of their branch offices) why he saw merit in what I proposed.
His answer made my hair stand up. He said their corporate bean counters are basing their payback calculations on energy costs being 30-40% higher than todays prices by 2013 and another 40-50% higher by 2022. How does $8 gas and fuel oil sound to you? How about natural gas at $5-6.00 per therm? He did say that they are basing this on worst case scenario but Holy Waa,........that is scary when you stop to think that these folks hire people to crunch numbers and project stuff like that. I hope like heck that the're wrong.0 -
and................................
you JUST had to get blantantly politIcal....didNTcha?????...UNDER A PSEUDONYM - NO LESS. Mad Dog
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Yes....that same head in the sand...............................
that blindly sends aid abroad on a scale equal to no other country in history....responds to every natural and political disaster on earth. You are right! We really should just worry about ourselves. Sounds good to me.....but then whom will you'll blame? Mad Dog
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My sentiments exactly
Funny- I am preparing some options for a Client on a large project where the goal is a LEED Silver building, and the architect is insisting on clear, un-tinted glass - floor to ceiling (12 ft. high), wall to wall, on a long south axis exposure!! I've got them at least thinking about some exterior solar shades, but they are balking at a low-e coating because they don't like the kind of reflectance one can see in overcast conditions.....They have questioned my "ulterior motives" already ??!! Yeah, I just want the Client to save money on his heating, cooling and air system, and save money for the 50 year+ life of the building. Apparently aesthetics and a clear view are the priority, and oh, by the way, can't you use a high efficiency cooling and heating plant to save energy?? I will continue the good fight and make the Client understand completely that HE is the one driving this bus, not the architect, and give him the bare, raw physics and numbers. The level of ignorance by what should be trained professionals never ceases to amaze me.0 -
Knowing you Steve...............................................
You have no intention of making it political, but it is a real hot-button issue and some like Plumdog cannot keep the fight fair. Mad Dog
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I get the strange looks on a regular basis as well..............
As Mr. Hunt says......most people are "sheeple." Their loss....blaze the trail and carry on...Geoff, that's what I try to do. Mad Dog
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I agree with you on that Mike.
It is heartbreaking to me. Mad Dog
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Low E on the South Side
Well, Geoff-
If you delete the Low E and go with clear uninsulated glass on that long south side, I could abide by that if there is an overhang exterior shading device for the higher summer sun. The benefits for passive solar when the sun is lower to the horizon would tend to make up for that in the total annual energy profile. This of course assumes that the building has the mass and other means to take advantage and manage the contribution. But I would always go toward Low E on the east and especially the west sides.
At the core, I agree with you, denouncing energy-sensible suggestions for minor aesthetic considerations is very short-sighted.0 -
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On the other hand,
... when you look at the profusion of ego-dominated architectual designs that have little to no consideration for the community, the inhabitants/users of a building, I remain a bit skeptical that the purse-string holders will ever get "it". Architects are very persuasive creatures, clients are gullible, and it's too easy to slough off the hard stuff to the engineers that are supposed to make the place work.
Witness the John Hancock tower in Boston that rained glass panels onto the streets below until ADL discovered the mode of failure (too much flex in the building, not enough flex in the glass), installed remediation and monitoring, etc. Just so that IM Pei would have a slender edifice to marvel at w/o the need for extensive internal bracing, etc. Proper structural design would have obviated the need for the remediation.
Hopefully, more energy-conscious houses are coming and the only way it will happen is for customers to tell their architects, builders, contractors that the place will be energy efficient or else. If any of those parties don't want to build that way, go find someone who will, it's a free economy. I had to square off with my architect on a number of occaisions and the benefit of being a client is that the architect does not get paid unless he does the work the client instructs him/her to.0 -
Hi Mike,
Wardenclyffe was a way of transporting power, not a source of power.0 -
Less Talk More Action...........
Everyone,
I had a plan in place to conserve a lot of energy. I put thousands of dollars into it. Lots of time and money and a few business trips. The plan was Overall Heating Efficiency. Until a couple of days ago, I had a action group put totgether that was actually going to do something that would have a major impact.
Of course the RPA voted to disban the whole Energy Efficiency Action Group.
Read my witch hunt posts.
If you really want to make a difference help me to get my Energy Efficiency Action Group back.
Please I need help.
John Ruhnke
The Condemned Witch
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Hydronics Designer
Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.0 -
our aid is pathetic
Relative to our size (the single dominant economic and military juggernaut on the planet), we send a pathetic amount of aid to others (about .15% of GNP) around the planet. Even billions going abroad is puny compared to other developed countries. The amount of aid sent for tsunami relief, for example, was about 12 cents per person in the U.S.0 -
Yes- the biggest hurdle is to get the exterior solar shading on, but with 12 feet of glass we are looking at about +/- 5.5 feet of "eyebrow", and the architect "doesn't like the look". Basically at this point even with 60% shaded glass AND the low-e coat the total heat gains and total heat losses of this facade are triple what the rest of the building is for the usual 12 foor perimeter zone along the south facade. This is an application where people will be right next to the glass for extended periods of time. I don't care what kind of hybrid radiant cooling slab and cool air system we have, there is no way to get any kind of HVAC system to react to fast-acting thermal transient loads that this amount of glass will create, both radiant and transmission loads.
We are also in a climate zone where we are not too heating dominated, and in fact the heat gain in winter would still exceed the heat losses on a sunny day (not that we have that many here on the Wet Coast). I guess they missed the architectural building physics class and are deniers of oil peak and energy costs escalation.0 -
Puny ?
Maybe as a percentage of GNP, but we aid more than ANY other country. Are we, as a nation, supposed to tithe now ?
Charity is not an obligation, it is a GIFT.
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Interesting Steve,
We just signed a contract on Wednesday with a couple who are just up from Oregon. They build Better energy efficient homes. Theirs is just 2400 Sq.Ft. in West Van, one of the richest communities in Canada. Bottom floor and main floor are the styro block design. R-40! walls. Bottom floor will be exposed concrete darkened. 3 largish south facing windows on the bottom floor for the winter solar gain. It is like this couple have walked right out of your other thread about efficincies being the big selling thing!
Pasquale said to us, that even though we were the highest bid, he had to have us, as he could tell that we knew what he was trying to achieve!
So now he has really got me thinking about a thread I started a few years ago, about a reverse t-stat. maybe some sensors in the bottom slab, and if the solar gain is high enough, open up that zone and start pumping that "free" heat to ther other areas of the house. I think In will be calling tekmar Mike in the next couple of days!
Leo G
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Just wondering?
If the whizz building designer has thought of mirrors. Inside placed correct, it could present a tall 12 foot cieling that'd not exist, and windows that were not so tall. Many times, I had to do things that were out of the box, and that way out is to just start by saying "this is not energy efficient so lets just clear out our minds and figure a way out of this delimna". It is the building envelope that looses heat that causes the heat bill to go up. Even 100% efficient equipment will not fix 100% heat loss!0 -
Actively distributing passive solar
Leo,
My new house is set up just as you describe. I'd say don't get too carried away with control strategies for that house. A well insulated high mass house tends to be naturally isothermal, so there won't be a real need to redistribute the solar heat. The other problem is the low temperature involved. The great room with a concrete floor won't really overheat too much during the heating season, so the slab may reach 78F. It doesn't work too well to try to heat a 66F room with 78F water, not exactly "quick response".
I tried some constant circulation in my house, and didn't notice any "redistribution effect".There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Have a look at the latest home energy...
... very interesting project up in Canada where they intend to heat an entire subdivision with a lot of solar panels mounted on garage roofs. A underground well field is then heated all summer, used in winter.
It's the same idea as yours, except that they will probably extract a lot more usable energy due to the delta-T they achieve in the solar collectors.0 -
heads not in the sand
It's not that our heads are in the sand it's up some thing else if you want to sound a engerny alarm loud and clear then start with a building code that designer cannot weasle out of like plans witha 1996 boca code complaince on the print that's bs .New homes built like c$$p with hot air furncaes in attics .The only true way to get people to save engerny is to make them pay more for it that seems to really wake people up ,most people list of proirities are as follows big suv ,paver driveways and 100 grand kitchens and lets not forget the mc mansion ,there are no homes being built with engerny eff in mind nor for any one m,aking under 100 grand a year inmy opion not only the US but the world is going to be in serious promblems inthe future we can only hope fpr a large pan demic to hour glass the pollulation down .As jim m sayed thge future uncertain and the end is always near peace and good luck clammyR.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating0 -
> Leo,
>
> My new house is set up just as you
> describe. I'd say don't get too carried away
> with control strategies for that house. A well
> insulated high mass house tends to be naturally
> isothermal, so there won't be a real need to
> redistribute the solar heat. The other problem
> is the low temperature involved. The great room
> with a concrete floor won't really overheat too
> much during the heating season, so the slab may
> reach 78F. It doesn't work too well to try to
> heat a 66F room with 78F water, not exactly
> "quick response".
>
> I tried some constant
> circulation in my house, and didn't notice any
> "redistribution effect".
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Thanx for the heads
up Kevin! The thing I forgot to include was that they have designed the "open" stairwell at the north side of the house to help distribute the bottom floor gain to the upper floors.
Am really interested to see how this turns out!
Leo G
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C,
you have a link available?
Leo G
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