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Frivolous
Comments
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You Realize...
... that there's another "Tony", right? We're not the same guy.
As long as I'm here, I have a question. What is the peak load for the utility the supplies your power? I think it's the "New England Power Alliance". You can "Google" them. (How would I know that?)
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Tony...
...I think it is important to look at each household and its energy needs rather than try to design a house to handle anything and everything. My house uses hot water for DHW and space heating with DHW having priority. I'm sure it could handle the "loads" you bring up. Electrically, it would need more photovoltaics and battery storage as I designed it only for me and my wife, though it is expandable. Even if the equipment ran $10,000 it would be much less than my cost of connecting to the grid. Another point; wind power is discussed here without the mention of photovoltaics. They are complimentary technologies performing best in different conditions. Throw in sufficient battery storage AND a backup generator and the need for the grid is gone. Even if it is impractical in places to go off-grid, efficiency first and solar or wind power second can go a long ways to cut energy usage. I'll hazard a guess that my house will measure 1/10th the power requirements of an average house the same size. Picking up the rest with solar electric and thermal is easy.
Yours, Larry
ps. Saving a forest is good!0 -
Maybe...
I should disagree with you, then it wouldn't be confusing
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Can...
... you effectively run a washing machine? Because if you can't, the vast majority of young families - and the women I'm related to - will have absolutely no interest in this type of house. Add to that, the prospect of hanging laundry out in the dead of winter (the climate where I live is MUCH different than where you are), I really it's see it's popularity as pretty limited. Good luck.0 -
Running Washing Machines on Off-Grid Power
Just wanted to chime in on the Tony and Larry W. volley:
One of the best washers I have seen is made for the off-grid and conventional market: Staber Industries.
Simple, SS construction, horizontal axis but top loading. Quiet and efficient with low water consumption. Motor is bi-directional and low starting torque, ideal for this market.
The design aspect I particularly like is that there are bearings on front and rear, not a cantilevered rear bearing. Balance is much improved and with it, torque requirements.
Imagine a six-sided perforated inner drum rotating in an 8-sided outer drum. Each facet/pass during rotation forces a pumping action in and out of the inner drum. Simple.
US-Made in Groveport, OH. Not cheap but a lot more reliable than my Maytag Neptune so far. It us a long-term investment.
Check our Staberindustries.com.
My $0.02
Brad0 -
Here's...
... the link that works.
http://www.staber.com/
They do look pretty cool, but when they say "loads", what size loads? I looked at the shots on the website, and it doesn't look like they'd take anything like the loads that goes through the one we've got from Sears.
Do you know anybody with a house full of kids that can effectively use one of these?0 -
I did eyeball that link!
Sorry for the guessed-up link, Tony.
They take HUGE loads, full king size quilts and lots of combinations. See the videos. I am getting another one for my Susan (two kids, lots of laundry). Sure the Sears/Whirlpools of the world can handle large loads but the water consumption of a top-loader is triple what a horizontal-axis machine can do. (Forget cold water washes for anything beyond light soil. You need at least warm and hot for whites despite cold water detergents, sorry to say.)
I bought one for my sister some years back, similar situation and she noticed a dramatic drop in her water and summer gas bill for domestic. So yes, they work and work well. Gentler too.0 -
That's...
... good to know. That's a realistic option. Pricey, but looks like it could actually offer a payback in a sensible timeframe.
Thanks for the info.0 -
When you compare to Maytag
and other front-loader horizontal axis washers, the premium is not that much and the payback is real. If you are off the grid, short of a scrub-board, there are few options.
Also yes, it is plain vanilla and that is the beauty of it. Belts and pulleys, no drive train issues, simple mechanical timers (reliable!) and no electronics to burn out (Maytag story here if you really want one).
Self-servicing simplicity and top-loader convenience. Thinking it will be the last washer I will ever need to buy. Goes to thinking long-term.
If you get one, let me know what you think.0 -
This...
... is something that's a realistic alternative. Simple is good - I love simple.0 -
Yup!
Stackable washer/ gas dryer. Just like normal folks I've taken pains to make sure this experience is not "freezing in the dark".
Yours, Larry0 -
Hmmm...
I also prefer washing machines without transmissions, clutches, etc. from a reliability point of view. It's a completely unscientific opinion though (i.e. I have no research to back it up). Some of my former clients in unrelated industries have long stories also re: Maytag Neptune woes, but that anecdotal evidence, at best.
The Staber is intriguing in that it's a top-loading H-axis washer. We had a similar model from AEG when I lived in Germany, though without the presumed convenience of the drum opening lining up with the top when the cycle is over (i.e. manual rotation to access the hatch).
I have a basic Kenmore/Frigidaire front-loader in our home. It has served us well despite not having the huge doors that were popularized by Maytag, Whirlpool, LG, etc. The same model keeps my in-laws happy, and they have 5x the laundry we do.0 -
The fact is if women washed clothes and beding half as much as they do then our national energy 'problem' would be signifigantly less.;-)0 -
you don't want to go there
As a large majority of the wall are wearing clean clothes right now thanks to a good wife.
About 15 years ago I was on a job where the Maytag machine was dented while being moved. The contractor bought the owner a new one and I got the old machine.
I still have it, it still works fine and has never given me a problem. It had to have been about five years old when I got it.
Washing Machines are right up there with old Refrigerators as far as reliablity.
Scott ( in clean cloths ) Milne
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I Really...
... think that folks need to do some reading outside of newspaper stories reagarding this technology. Who's taking the readings? Who's doing the calculations? What method are they using? This wouldn't be just a PR exercise would it? (They wouldn't do that - that would be wrong...)
If they really can effectively generate any reliable amount of power this way, then good for them. I strongly suspect that the reality is quite different, though. Remember, you have to build duplicate generating capacity for windpower. The other plant will be fossil fuel or nuke. You the ratepayer/taxpayer are paying twice. This is expensive power, particulary considering just how little power it is.0 -
I agree with Scott...
and I would not want to be the person selling you life insurance nor a testicle protection rider for portable valuables...
Besides (as my Susan will tell you), I do the laundry too. And maintain my portable valuables in the process...
Still, I enjoyed your point, at your risk!
From the No Spin Zone,
Brad0 -
The town of Hull, Ma ( on the leeward side of the prevailing winds )has had a turbine for a couple of years now. Im not sure what its running, but I just heard they are installing their 2nd. It must be saving them $$ ( I would hope ) or they wouldnt add another.0 -
Hull's Wind Turbine
to my understanding, powers street lights and also unconfirmed, some aspects of the high school.
The Nantasket Carousel, however, is not on even the rumor list
There indeed is talk about adding another.0 -
Have You Noticed...
... how the windmill stories always focus on how many houses, or college dorms in this case, that can be supplied? You know why they do that, right? These are the lowest and easiest loads to deal with. If they told people the hard numbers, they'd all just roll their eyes and walk away. The folks who are paying for this stuff - the ratepayers/taxpayers - don't know how to do the math for these installations. And they shouldn't have to - the "powers that be" should be properly looking after it.
Politicians like windmills, because they can get their pictures in the paper beside a "big thing". The main point being that they get their picture in the paper standing next to some "thing" that people like to see. Whether or not the "thing" performs any real purpose is not relevant. It's merely a stage prop.
The technical people at the utility will know what's what, but the politicians will have mandated them to have a certain percentage of their generating capacity as "green". The politicians are doing this because if they run for election saying the two nasty words "coal" or "nuke", they won't get in. That's exactly what happened here in Ontario. The current provincial gov't ran on a program of shutting down all of the "dirty old coal plants". Guess what - part way into this bit of genius, it's dawned on them that they can't shut down a coal plant like Lakeview in Toronto (probably 1,000 - 1,200 MW), and replace it with a windmill downtown. (And they actually DID that... now there's a power shortage - BIG surprise.) They're busy beating the nu-clear drum now (ads on TV with blue skies & fluffy white clouds.) And of course, the greens are up in arms over that. They somehow think that electrical power just magically appears.
Look at the electrical load for where you are. Don't just look at residential loads like houses or college dorms - look at hospitials & factories as well - count everything. Imagine that the wind blows hard, constantly. Figure out how many windmills you'd need to supply that load. Now figure the installed cost. Now - Ron Jr. won't like this - imagine the wind drops...0 -
Is There...
... an election coming up?
Not being cynical, just curious 0 -
Reply to wind turbines
Wind turbines, with existing electic motors can generate sufficent power to pump water from very deep under the ground. Wind generation only adds a slight cost, about $2-$4 per MW, to incorporate into the grid, including interconnection and ancilary costs. This is on top of $50-$70 or so per MWh charged to the consumer. This is comparable to the cost to incorporate new coal generation into the mix but without the environmental costs. (source is a recent article in IEEE Power Magazine, wind integration studies performed in several states as well as a wind integration study performed in Great Britan)
Wind farms do not have margnial output either. Currently in Minnesota wind energy supplys enough energy anually for about average residential 250,000 homes. The past problems with wind energy have been solved and the technology is here and is being utililized well and in a responsible economic fasion. We need to be using it more.0 -
Hmmm...
... "windustry". You wouldn't perchance be employed by the wind turbine folks?
What kind of GPM at what head would this wind powered water system deliver? Are there any operations that use wind power exclusively for their domestic water supply?
Why the "250,000 homes" value? How about MW?0 -
Obviously 1 or 2 or 1,000 windmills isnt going to generate all the power needed to fuel are power-crazed lifestyles, but HEY! they are a start.( that sounds like a good commecial.
If we keep going down this path ................0 -
Wind ?
> ... how the windmill stories always focus on how
> many houses, or college dorms in this case, that
> can be supplied? You know why they do that,
> right? These are the lowest and easiest loads to
> deal with. If they told people the hard numbers,
> they'd all just roll their eyes and walk away.
> The folks who are paying for this stuff - the
> ratepayers/taxpayers - don't know how to do the
> math for these installations. And they shouldn't
> have to - the "powers that be" should be properly
> looking after it.
>
> Politicians like windmills,
> because they can get their pictures in the paper
> beside a "big thing". The main point being that
> they get their picture in the paper standing next
> to some "thing" that people like to see. Whether
> or not the "thing" performs any real purpose is
> not relevant. It's merely a stage prop.
>
> The
> technical people at the utility will know what's
> what, but the politicians will have mandated them
> to have a certain percentage of their generating
> capacity as "green". The politicians are doing
> this because if they run for election saying the
> two nasty words "coal" or "nuke", they won't get
> in. That's exactly what happened here in Ontario.
> The current provincial gov't ran on a program of
> shutting down all of the "dirty old coal plants".
> Guess what - part way into this bit of genius,
> it's dawned on them that they can't shut down a
> coal plant like Lakeview in Toronto (probably
> 1,000 - 1,200 MW), and replace it with a windmill
> downtown. (And they actually DID that... now
> there's a power shortage - BIG surprise.) They're
> busy beating the nu-clear drum now (ads on TV
> with blue skies & fluffy white clouds.) And of
> course, the greens are up in arms over that. They
> somehow think that electrical power just
> magically appears.
>
> Look at the electrical load
> for where you are. Don't just look at residential
> loads like houses or college dorms - look at
> hospitials & factories as well - count
> everything. Imagine that the wind blows hard,
> constantly. Figure out how many windmills you'd
> need to supply that load. Now figure the
> installed cost. Now - Ron Jr. won't like this -
> imagine the wind drops...
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Wind ?
You haven't been to Cape Cod have you. Wind is just about an every day occurance, sailing is big down here. Just ask Sen. Ted Kennedy (a politician) that does not what wind turbines, coal or nukes, at least not in his back yard (Nantucket Sound). There is a bill before the U.S. senate that will not allow for the "Wind farm project" in Nantucket Sound. Sponsored by a Senator from Alaska.
As far as the "utility" companies you mean like the one in Sandwich MA (Cape Cod) that filed for bankrucy and stuck the town and the TAXPAYER with over 3 million in back taxes . NO you said technical people, like the ones from the local gas company that over size the heating system by 200%, after all you do get the equipment for FREE. You know we can trust the corp. world like CEO of Exxon or Hess. Highest profits in company's history.
The orginal question is still lost in the debut, can we cut the consumtion or do we want to let all of the above to solve it for us, after all they have done right by us so for? You keep doing the math and I'll keep looking for a better way. Hopefully we can meet in the middle and start really solving the problem.0 -
I've...
... lived on the Bay Of Fundy - I know exactly what the wind is like on the east coast.
Why are all the sail boats you can see from shore only pleasure craft? Not much commercial traffic using sail, is there? Why would they not be using this beautiful, green, free means of propulsion?
I have no illusions that big business, institutions, the gov't, etc have my best interests at heart. If they do, it's much more coincidence than anything planned. That's why I try to read up on things I'm interested in, from a range of sources. Everybody has their own axe to grind. Folks have to check out all the "axes" and do some thinking for themselves.
If somebody can show me how windpower is a viable energy source for a modern industrial society, I'm waiting to be convinced. So far, I haven't seen anything that would cause me to change how I think, though. Show me the math.0 -
If anyone solves these problems
it will be what it has always been. From a ground swell upward. These systems that get mentioned, like the one mentioned in the Cape Cod times, and the others; I cannot help but think that they are like the first efforts of Edison working on a light bulb, or early cars, or early steam locomotives. Crude, but they were a start and as time went on, trail and yes, error, helped perfect those products
Several years ago here at the hospital we had a person who, because of stroke, hiccupped whenever they were awake. Some kind of h*ll I think. One day when I saw this person, the hiccups had stopped. I heard that someone had suggested acupuncture. Now I am not involved in direct patient care, less now then at that time, and as a lay person, I thought acupuncture was right up there with witch doctors. Anyway, an acupuncturist came in and gave the person an acupuncture treatment. These treatments worked. The patient would have to repeat them from time to time, but it taught me to keep the open mind and have hope.
Here is a link to one of these projects that I think might have hope, http://www.startribune.com/539/story/408033.html. This guy has a proven business track record. You have heard of his company. And now on to a new product with a 99.7 fuel conversion rate.
His website is : http://www.bixbyenergy.com/. Rudimentary at this point, yes, but at one time, so was Edison in Menlo Park. Jim
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Since we are asking
Do you work in the fields of coal or nuclear energy. If you are not then maybe you should be on the payroll.
David0 -
I Do Not...
... work in power generation, but I have in the past. I know how electrical generating plants work, and the scale they need to be to meet the load. I care about keeping the lights on and hanging on to at least some manufacturing jobs.
What's your background and employment?0 -
ok Tony
so you don't like wind if that's 100% out of the equasion then what is your solution??.0 -
I believe Tony's point is
that as it stands right now, the only solutions are the ALTERNATE fuels we have in front of of us RIGHT NOW.
Also, those alternate fuels do not fit in with a certain agenda.
Whether we like it or not, the grass is green and the sky is blue.
This is my opinion. Doesn't matter how many people you have chasing fool's gold. It is still worthless.
I have been reading every post on the energy threads and to date, not one person has been able to prove what Tony has said to be wrong. Not one challenge to his numbers. There has been a bunch of rhetoric, but no "I have the answer" posts.
Do any of you think for ONE instant that if wind/solar were economically viable that a big corporation would not already have cornered the market on it. After all, that's what big corporations do...right??? So far all I see is a group that LIVES AND DIES ON GOVERNMENT HAND OUTS. Tax breaks in the 70's meant a boom for the solar dudes. Tax breaks went away and so did the solar guys. Why??? If it really was "all that", where did the industry go??? Did it not prove itself?? Did it miss the 15 minutes of fame that it was allotted? Or is it a fact that without being tax-payer funded and subsidised the solar of yester-year was nothing more than "feel good" policy? Again, "The government" means TAXPAYERS! Wouldn't the taxpayers have jumped on any relief they could get then??? Between high energy costs and high taxation, what kept them from jumping on the solar option???
Please do not insult me with the "big oil" conspiracy. That dog just won't hunt.
I believe that America WILL find a way to be energy independant. We lead the world in innovation.
Perhaps some of those innovations are already staring us in the face?
Respectfully,
Mark H
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I Have...
... nothing against wind power as such. What I object to is how it's being held out as this "Great Green Hope" by the media. It's being presented for political reasons as a real alternative to conventional methods and I think that's misleading at best, and dangerous at worst.
Did you look at the power generation requirement for the New England Power Alliance? It's like 30,000 MW. I don't think that includes NY, PA, etc. There's just no way other than by steam turbine driven generators to meet that kind of load requirement. And the burning of natural gas & light oil in these huge plants has just got to stop. We're left with throwing coal or splitting atoms. That's the technical reality. "Name your poison."0 -
Tony...
The next time you head West, let me know and make time to come by and see the house I've built. It is far more energy efficient, quieter and has less upkeep that most homes. It is neither pretentious nor below par as homes go. Even with all the energy stuff I did, it cost much less per square foot than a "normal" house. I'm trying to walk the walk and show that very efficient housing is readily achieveable right now.
Would we still have an energy problem if our housing stock was 90% more efficient? Probably! But it would be a big step in the right direction.
Yours, Larry0 -
Tony
Most pf us are smart enough not to follow the media "spin" on this. Most of us are smart enough to know this is not the end all to our energy needs, BUT it could help and just might gives a softer landing from the oil wells drying up.
Mark, as allways you make some good points. I would think that solar went away because oil prices dropped and our economy boomed. The general public saw no need to lower thier fuel bills. They do NOW.
Again I see solar as a supplement and to say it is not viable at all defeatest. Yes we can not supply a entire region with Windmills, I don't think anyone is saying that. To say it can't solve our energy problems by itself shelves the whole idea.
Sailboats are for pleasure because they go SLOW and slow is not in commerce best interest. Wind happens and alot. I think we should keep wind and solar supplements to our needs. I know I have already begun thinking how to help my customers with these needs.
Insulation alone does not eliminate my house from needing fuel .... should I forget about it ??
Scott
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Invention
There is an interesting article in this months Autoweek about a an inventor of a 6-cycle gasoline engine.
There are a lot of brilliant people looking for answers.
Try this linkThere was an error rendering this rich post.
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Yes, \"Big Corporation\" is cornering Solar
From Mark H:
"Do any of you think for ONE instant that if wind/solar were economically viable that a big corporation would not already have cornered the market on it. After all, that's what big corporations do...right??? snip>
Respectfully,
Mark H"
Hi Mark,
Both BP and Shell and other oil companies have invested a lot into Solar. GE has a lot in Wind and Solar.
Part has to do with "GOVERNMENT HAND OUTS" but remember that Oil gets big "GOVERNMENT HAND OUTS" too.
Wind can be very competative in cost in some areas but not a lot of areas. Unfortunatly, there is not enough wind to meet our total energy needs.
Fuel Cells are NOT the solution to our energy problems. They are not a SOURCE of energy, they are a clean but inefficent way of storing power since it takes much more energy to seperate hydrogen than you get out of it.
Even Nuke is not the total sollution since there is not enough uranium on the planet for our energy needs.
Solar is the ONLY source of energy that is larger than our usage. Biofuels are a form of Solar energy since plants convert the sun's energy to fuel stock.
The solution to our energy problem will have to be a combination of technologies. Most of our fixed use of energy will be electricity generated by various Solar technologies. Smaller amounts from hydro, wind, biofuels etc.
Commercial Transportation will still have to rely heavily on burnable fuels. Jets can run on biodiesel. There are commercially available diesel piston aircraft engines that can run on biodiesel too. Ethanol/Methanol for the non diesel prop planes.
Trains- biodiesel or electricity from the track or wires.
Big trucks- mostly hybrid diesel/electric running on biodiesel.
Delivery vehicles- mostly electric or "plug-in" hybrid diesel/electric running on biodiesel.
Private vehicles- mostly electric or conventional and "plug-in" hybrid diesel/electric running on biodiesel and some hybrids running on ethanol/methanol.
By the way, Solar PV is now almost cost effective with other forms of electric generation but the world wide demand of PV is more than twice the production capability of all of the PV manufacturers.
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I'm Sure...
... that you've done a fine job Larry, and I'm not trying to take anything away from your achievement.
Here's the other end of the energy issue, from my perspective. There's a paper plant that uses recycled paper to make packaging for a variety of products. They lose $900,000 a MONTH, and that is pretty typical of the pulp & paper industry for the last while. Energy costs - natural gas and electrical power are a big chunk of that $ shortfall. The other bit is that since so much manufacturing has moved overseas, there is a reduced demand for the boxes they make. Windmills are not going to keep this plant open. These guys need cheaper electricity and to be able to burn #6 oil. There's a tire plant - big energy user - an hour from me that announced that it's closing in July of this year. 1,100 people are being laid off. That's the industrial reality facing North America.0 -
Insulation...
... works all the time when you need it to, and many people can show the math on the payback. I'm waiting for somebody to show me how this is possible with wind power. Anybody?0 -
Some Thoughts...
... Tony, you certainly make a number of valid points. I am not sure where to come down on where renewable energy sources do or do not make sense. However, I do note that PG&E and other utilities are building a giant stirling engine solar electrical plant in the middle of the CA desert w/o government assistance.
From my limited perspective, such plants seem to make a lot of sense in areas where you can pretty much depend on the sun and where peak insolation also causes peak loads to occur (i.e. air conditioning). If such Stirling collectors can be shown to be effective, I see no reason that they could not be deployed in many hot, sunny, dry areas to maximum benefit of both the wallet and the environment.
I also had a look at my Nstar bill and have a couple of thoughts re: energy supplies and the like. According to Nstar, our supplier of electrical power is Dominium, a company listed on the NYSE under the ticker D. Of my entire electrical bill, the power generation charge made up 57% of the total. Looking over the 10Q form filed by Dominion, about 1/4 of its operating expenses are made up of depreciation, maintenance, etc. the rest is made up of COGS.
In other words, 13% of my monthly bill is made up of plant maintenance and depreciation. A further 14% of the bill were costs related to transmission. Now lets say we had to keep the extant generating capacity in order to maintain 100% uptime. What would be the net effect on a consumer? I think the question hinges on the cost of fuel, the reliability of the resource, and the cost of installing the renewable assets.
For one, the transmission costs drop significantly when the power is generated close to its end user, benefitting the likes of Cape Power. Plus, the cost of fuel for the renewable source is zero, vs. the 40% we currently spend on Dominion. Even if we were to double the fixed costs the consumer could come out ahead. So it can make sense, particularly when you look at how electrical power is generated in MA.
As the fuel costs for non-renewable energy keep rising there will come the time where having excess generating capacity will make sense. According to La Capra associates, there is a overall net benefit to the MA area for the wind farm to go in. Ultimately, it all depends on actual market conditions about which we can conjecture to no end. Cheers!0
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