Which is the worst heating system and why?

Glen

it seems that you have a notion of what is required already. I have the luxury of working on almost exclusively Viessmann equipment - argueably the finest boilers made. Unfortunately - installation practises are not always up to the quality of the equipment. How do you tell a HO that is cold and spending more on fuel than the mortgage that the system is fubared and needs a complete revamp??? The reasons are numerous - incorrect tubing installation - undersizing of supply piping, ODS on the south side of the home, wrong equipment selection - the list goes on. How do you spell prequalification of installers - which is an aside quite apart from having a trades qualification in your back pocket. There are any number of really good guidelines available and required for hot water based heating systems - it depends on jurisdiction. But here are our minimum requirements - which follow published guidelines and are vetted from there by discussion with the HO so that their exact expectations are met: budgets discussions aside it starts with an interview (not to embellish our qualifications but to examine HO requirements and expectations)second if that goes well we have a professional heat loss calc done including HRV recommendations which is often a separate calc. These costs are borne by the HO and not part of the eventual quote. I might add we only do over pour installs - this may add further engineering costs to the HO. Solar is often considered for DHW heating as well. Once equipment is selected (including controls) a budget price is offered. This often causes heavy blinking and nodding by the HO - it is afterall their dream system that will keep them warm and healthy for years to come. I have found this format to be beneficial to all - it is not for the 1000 sf budget home. So you must wonder - how many a year do we actually do??? We are a small company and promise to devote our attention to your project - so we limit this activity to a max of three a year. Most years it is less. Call backs??? What are those???? We pay attention to every detail - and aside from minor tuneups of the programming - enjoy really positive relationships with all of our clients. After all that we conclude the deal on a handshake - with prepayments decided and agreed to. It's not simple - but it works well - just like our heating systems.

Unknown

the "best" thread was (is!) a good read, just thought it might be interesting to see the worst.

i nominate my own forced hair (and dust too) heating system. one of my major concerns of course is the health issue, especially with young one in the house. my house is 100 years old and has gone through many permutations and renovations, and apparently cleaning the ducts was not on the list,(see pic) this is a problem naturally inherent to forced air. all of this is goin' bye bye this summer for some cozy panel rads ^_^

Rodney Summers

zac

Is that a wire in the duct work?


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Here's a Slightly Enhance Version of the Photo

Sure does look like a wire...

What on earth is at the bottom? end?

[Deleted User]

THE worst system...

is the one where you thought due to your expert buying prowess, and good deal skills ends up being an albatross around your neck. You know, the one that hangs there and stinks up the place...

And it isn't limited to any particular brand name. I've seen some of the finest equipment in the world poorly/improperly installed and it STILL stinks.

Going for the lowest price will most assuredly buy you nothing but problems. It is not my goal in life to be the "lowest bidder". It is my goal to be the most comprehensive contractor with an all encompassing proposal. It is your job as the consumer to look at each and every proposal that you get, and not look for the bottom line. Remember, you will be married to the system and the contractor for the rest of your time in that home. Make sure it is a good marriage, or it may cause a divorce...

Do YOUR homework FIRST before you even begin rounding up bids and estimates. Consider hiring a pro to design the system to make sure that everyone is bidding apples to apples, instead of lemons to cherrys. If the local competition does not want to bid on someone elses professional design, it is probably because they don't understand what it is that has been presented to them. Consider that a warning sign...

Proceed with dilligence and caution.

ME

Unknown

not a wire (though there are wires in my ducts too)

pic is looking down the return air cavern in my dining room floor, (see pic)and that "wire" is actually a cobweb flapping in the breeze.

Unknown

not a wire (though there are wires in my ducts too)

the view is looking down the return air cavern in my dining room floor (see attached) and that "wire" is actually a cobweb flapping in the breeze. and that pile of stuff at the bottom is decades of filth that has accumulated. (i get a kick out of showing it off to houseguests, much to my wifes shagrin)

Rodney Summers

Mark

Great post!


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Unknown

@Mark

very true, good points. I just read some of your solar articles and you've inspired me to rough-in some 1" copper mains to the attic when i redux my heating this summer

Christian Egli_2

What makes for glamour and heating systems?

The worse system is like the worse suit, it's the one that doesn't fit. Even the ritziest label won't make you into a head turner. I am also guessing that the grunge fashion had to come with plenty fitting rules too. No one wants to be out of style.

What makes a heating system fit? It all depends on how big your local climate is.

Forced air heat has got to be perfect in humid winter climates. Put Florida and the South in that category.

Radiant floor heat with very slow response time has got to be perfect in slow to change climate. Put the Northwest coast and the Mountain climates and western Europe in this category.

For places that need blasting hot heat like way up north Canada and the wintry Northeast coast, an air to air heat pump is a sick joke.

For the wild weathered climate of the Midwest on to the East coast, you need a mightily agile and powerful system that can blast you with heat one minute and back off the next because it suddenly got 60 degrees warmer outside. I see these swings every season, and my champion is steam heat.

But I agree, a steam system may perhaps be a tiny bit of overkill for a place like Maui, don't you think? Don't know for sure.

Back to my wardrobe

Steam heat is like a leather jacket. High value. Highly durable investment. Instant on off removable heat. Loads of comfort due to the animal fibers. Broad range of weather you can wear it in, rain, sun, wind, cold. Knowledgeable care is a must, but very little care is needed. Can make squeaky noises. Even a coat worn for years still provides efficient warmth. Never will go out of style. Can wear on any occasion. Not always PC with all crowds. Looks can be intimidating.

Radiant floor heat would be along the lines of the blue jeans. Very comfortable. Natural fibers. You don't know you're wearing them. Styles are much sensitive to detailing, bell bottoms are out... Can't prevent overheating unless you are a nudist. Not good for skiing, you can freeze over if you get them wet. Several weak wear points shorten their durability. Worn out jeans stop being useful. Looks good on anyone. High style fashion. Easy to care for. Accepted the world over but not for every occasion. Iconic love.

Forced air is as ubiquitous as polyester. You find it everywhere. It is synthetically mass produced. Appears in many new efficient forms from fleece and suede to silk like finishes. Comfort and breathability are dubious unless you provide for layers. Keeps you hot but with moisture issues. Care is a breeze. Necessary cleaning is a snap. No knowledge of iron is required. Does not wear out but catastrophic rips call for new clothes. Dangerous fire hazard issues. Poor quality clothes look real cheap. The polyester suit could be worn on every occasion but not for all times.

So, which fits you the worse? or the best?

CH

Clothes make the man.

Bud_17

Thanks Christian

Here is some interesting information..if someone doesn't maintain their system properly (forced air or hot water) it's bad? End of story!

To all wet heads

But how do you wet heads over come the tight home ventilation needs for healthier environment with out ducts and filters? Air to Air exchangers? I'd be will to bet that with the lack of sheet metal skills in many shops, many are installing these using the restrictive and dust collecting insulated flex pipe?

Do you address this when selling a comfort system..or do you just push heat and the heck with health? Just courious? Does your state require X amount of air exchanges in new homes?

You're not taliking about "Schorched Air" because todays furnace it simply cannot be schorched? So tell me something as if you were professionally speaking to a home owner that wants a system to do address the homes ventilation? Common educate me please? Make me smarter:)

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/ia-intro.html#Amount of Ventilation

Weezbo

The worst...

is expensive to operate on a day to day basis,takes up every spare dollar and min of your time frickin with it, turning up an down the thermostat, is constantly running out of Fuel,has combustion problems, sucks the life out of you and your family,is loud and makes lots of strange noises, has no combustion air and secretly you think it is the reason everyone keeps getting sick or is tired, depressed, with headaches every heating season.

Bud_17

Back Flow Preventers

Has anyone here had any problems with backflow preventers failing on their hot water systems?(Causing boiler water to back up and contaminate household drinking water) Do you check these on your yearly maintenance of the systems or replace them ever? Do these need to be checked ever to make sure they are working properly, or do they last forever?

In many commercial buildings back flow preventers have to be checked yearly and tested. This is a seperate certification for testing backflow preventers? Does this have to be done in residential systems? Or don't they risk the threat of a bad backflow preventers? If they did have a bad (failed) backflow preventer and didn't know it,wouldn't there health be at risk?

[Deleted User]

Good for you Zac!

I'm glad it inspired you. If you have ANY questions on solar, ask them here. There are a BUNCH of guys here that speak solar fluently.

Go Solar!

Since 1973...

ME

[Deleted User]

It happens every day in Denver Bud...

Maintenance people shut of the water and bleed off pressure form building to do wotk in basement. Expansion tank of system empties back into the ptoable water main. Maintenance recharges system blowing bad boiler wawa everywhere. People get silghtly ill, water department shows up and problem has already self corrected... The PROBELM is stil there, but the city (neither the water department nor the building department) doesn't enforce the rule. They each point the finger of blame (wrongly) at each other. In reality, the building department should be giving the water department the names and address of all boiler rooms that they are aware of, and the water department SHOULD be sending out a rep to ascertain degree of hazard and recommend necessary BFP's. That applies to multifamily/commercial. Residentially, they require a Watts 9-d, dbl check with atmoshperic vent, no testing, no replacement. (Didja ever read the instructions that come with them? They recommend replacement every 2 to 3 years)

BFP in Denver is storng on the front end and WEAK on the follow up enforcement.

I'm not 100% positive, but I think it's probably that way all over. One municipality I'm aware (Aurora) of requires it and enforces it even on residential. That's why we use our captive pressurization system. No annual inspection fee for the city, because there is no hard connection to the city water system.

Residentially, Denver has check valves on their meters. I know for a fact that the city has paid to remodel numerous basements due to relief valves going off and sticking when the city replaced the meter with one that has an internal check valve...They learned to notify the owner in ADVANCE to the meter being installed so the consumer could get the proper expansion acceptance system on line.

Live and learn.

ME

rb_6

IAQ + ICQ = IEQ

There seems to be confusion or an assumption about the meaning of HVAC. H, heating is not (necessarily) comfort...in fact we know from research that the H in HVAC is a leading cause of consumer complaints. V, ventilation is frequently obtainable in the presence of discomfort or totally absent while being comfortable. AC is not exclusively cooling. It can be filtration and (de) humidification in the absence of reducing temperature.

In our books, the worst system is one, which ignores both IAQ and ICQ. Next in line would be a mechanical/architectural system, which attempts to achieve both IAQ and ICQ without acknowledging and addressing the bodies thermal regulation system, which is predominantly radiant based in heating or cooling. (Exception to high met activities in high temperature environments). As Geoff McDonell pointed out in a previous post, building efficiency (as opposed to a mechanical approach) is effective in addressing ICQ. In the efficient home radiant losses and gains to and from the body are reduced and floor/foot conduction is also minimized due to higher surface temperatures all resulting in elevated comfort. Therefore, a dedicated ventilation system with reheat coils in the S/A in an energy efficient structure can create a similar environment as a radiant based system in a less than efficient structure also having a dedicated ventilation system.

The key is not to look at conditioning the air, ventilation, cooling, or heating as mutually inclusive around the word "comfort". They could be if we corrected the approach to HVAC design, which is to condition people and not buildings.

Glen

I'll bite -

it seems that you have a notion of what is required already. I have the luxury of working on almost exclusively Viessmann equipment - argueably the finest boilers made. Unfortunately - installation practises are not always up to the quality of the equipment. How do you tell a HO that is cold and spending more on fuel than the mortgage that the system is fubared and needs a complete revamp??? The reasons are numerous - incorrect tubing installation - undersizing of supply piping, ODS on the south side of the home, wrong equipment selection - the list goes on. How do you spell prequalification of installers - which is an aside quite apart from having a trades qualification in your back pocket. There are any number of really good guidelines available and required for hot water based heating systems - it depends on jurisdiction. But here are our minimum requirements - which follow published guidelines and are vetted from there by discussion with the HO so that their exact expectations are met: budgets discussions aside it starts with an interview (not to embellish our qualifications but to examine HO requirements and expectations)second if that goes well we have a professional heat loss calc done including HRV recommendations which is often a separate calc. These costs are borne by the HO and not part of the eventual quote. I might add we only do over pour installs - this may add further engineering costs to the HO. Solar is often considered for DHW heating as well. Once equipment is selected (including controls) a budget price is offered. This often causes heavy blinking and nodding by the HO - it is afterall their dream system that will keep them warm and healthy for years to come. I have found this format to be beneficial to all - it is not for the 1000 sf budget home. So you must wonder - how many a year do we actually do??? We are a small company and promise to devote our attention to your project - so we limit this activity to a max of three a year. Most years it is less. Call backs??? What are those???? We pay attention to every detail - and aside from minor tuneups of the programming - enjoy really positive relationships with all of our clients.

Glen

rb -

can I use that??? (and when are you back in Calgary??)

rb_6

Graphic

Hi Glen,

Its yours to use as you like.

You can reach me at the office this week then its off to Vegas to speak at Uponors' HCT convention and then into Tacoma for RadFest West.

RB

Glen

I'm home tomorrow -

from downtown Inuvik. Perhaps we can talk Roy C into a bowl of noodles (Monday) around the corner from his office.

rb_6

Sounds great!

Is that the place on Barlow Tr.?

Glen

around the corner -

behind "hooters" They have a great satay seafood bowl! I'll phone Roy in the morning.

jeb

water

I would not worry about the drinking water. Lets be real who drinks tap water anymore?