Btu flow meters? (PAH)

pitman9

> I have a client with multiple apartments <BR>
> utilizing a central boiler. Each apt is piped to <BR>
> a manifold-tree next to the boiler. He won't <BR>
> consider separate boilers (in spite of the <BR>
> increased efficiency and potential fuel savings) <BR>
> and wants to monitor each apartment's Btu usage. <BR>
> I've already forewarned him he's not allowed to <BR>
> re-sell a public utility in PA, but he wants a <BR>
> price anyway. So, I'm looking for Btu meters. Any <BR>
> advice will be much appreciated.<BR>
> <BR>
> _A <BR>
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id= <BR>
> 98&Step=30"_To Learn More About This <BR>
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in <BR>
> "Find A Professional"_/A_ <BR>
<BR>

Dave Yates (PAH)

boiler app

I have a client with multiple apartments utilizing a central boiler. Each apt is piped to a manifold-tree next to the boiler. He won't consider separate boilers (in spite of the increased efficiency and potential fuel savings) and wants to monitor each apartment's Btu usage. I've already forewarned him he's not allowed to re-sell a public utility in PA, but he wants a price anyway. So, I'm looking for Btu meters. Any advice will be much appreciated.

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J.C.A._3

Dave,

I haven't seen BTU meters,(the fuel choice kind of lets that be the deciding factor eh?) but have seen both 24 and 120V hour meters. They could be tied into the thermostat/switching relays and let them know the hours that the sensor was/has been activated in a set period.

If there are rules concerning the ability of the owner to set costs directly to the dwellings...I think they are a waste of time and money....unless he would like to consider raising rents to tennants based on their individual fuel consumption by way of metering....

Grainger has a few different type of meters that can count hours of thermostat and/or switching relay uses. Best of luck. Chris

Dan Foley

Danfoss

Dave,

Try Bill Burton or Brian Wheeldon at Danfoss. I believe they have some experience with BTU meters. RB may be able to help you as well.

Istec manufactures a line of btu meters. Check out this link:

http://www.istec-corp.com/

-DF

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pitman9

Would timers work?

Seems like resettable 24v or 110v timers on each apartment's ZV or circ would be a reasonable way to guesstimate each apartment's usage.

rb_6

meters

ISTA Heat Meters

Kamstrup Heat Meters

Danfoss Heat Meters

By the way the global heat metering business is more incentuous than the control valve or heat exchanger business! In the end its just all one great big happy familiy...

1902 CLORIUS set up in Denmark by Odin and Aksel Clorius


1924 CLORIUS receives a first patent for heat allocation meters


1957 ISTA is set up by Joh. Schultz and Karl Völker in Mannheim (Germany). ISTA receives a first patent for heat allocation meters.


1974 CLORIUS taken over by ISS
___________________________________________________
Side bar note: To the best of my recollection...ISTA Energy Systems Corporation (US) Bernard ?, was founded in 1978 (independent of the ISTA Euro clan) then in 1987, the name was changed from ISTA Energy Systems Corporation to ISTEC Corporation when the Euros decided to bring their overnight pajamas to the United States. Not sure what happens to Bernard (nice guy) but it looks like Ed Bullis and Peter Johnson are the new principals.
____________________________________________________

1990 RAAB KARCHER takes over ISTA

1994 Merger of ISTA and CLORIUS to form RAAB KARCHER ENERGIESERVICE

1997 Raab Karcher Energy Services joins the US-American market and expands its activities to Asia by setting up a representative agent in Beijing, China

1998 Raab Karcher Energy Services is represented with subsidiaries in practically all European countries

1999 Following the merger of Raab Karcher and Veba Immobilien to form Viterra AG, Raab Karcher Energy Services now operates under the name of Viterra Energy Services

2000 With its program "Energie im Griff" (Getting a Grip on Energy), Viterra Energy Services offers comprehensive services for the German metering market.

Viterra Energy Services takes over the Spanish company Incatema and thus joins the Spanish and Brazilian metering business.

Viterra Energy Services becomes market leader in the Czech Republic.

By acquiring Envirotech Utility Management Services, Viterra Energy Services becomes market leader in the USA for the allocation of energy and water costs based on individually measured consumption.

2001 Viterra Energy Services continues to expand its activities in the USA and has acquired 100% of the shares in Utiliread Inc, Atlanta.

Viterra Energy Services AG has acquired the Stockholm metering and accounting company Etrem with activities in Sweden, Finland and Norway and thus joins the Scandinavian energy and utility market.

2003 Viterra is sold to the British Investment Company CVC Capital Partners. The ownership is transferred with retroactive economic effect from January 1, 2003.

2005 As part of its final separation from the Viterra AG real estage group, Viterra returns to its roots and is named ista North America.

Then while all of these brothers and sisters were playing...the other families decided to play tootsies for a bit ... make note of the product similarites...that's what happens when the gene pool is messed with...

The slogan is...you'll be glad to meter...and happier when you marry er'.

...or the more you meter the marry er'

c.t.kay

btu meters

call istec at 973 726 7090,web site www.istec-corp.com .

c.t.kay

istec

bernard retired when he sold the company to ed & peter.

Harold

BTUs

If you have both the source and return for each individual apartment accessable (and the input and output do not strictly need to be in the same general area) you could use a small data logger to record temperature difference when the apartment is calling for heat. A PC with interface cards and some logging software package is another possibility. You would log temperature differences when the thermostat was calling for heat (use the thermostat signal to trigger the logging). If you use a PC, you could have something written to do the calculations or dump the data loggers to a PC for processing.

The trick here is to be able to determine the rate of flow for the apartment. If there is one thermostat per apartment, and no individual adjustments that could affect water flow volume, then you could just measure or calculate the flow rate once and use it for the BTU calculations. A circulator per apartment would tend to decouple the effects of pressure drops in the loop and pressure in the manifold with varying numbers of loops calling for heat. You can get flow sensors for each apartment but these add significantly to the cost; especially at heating temperature ratings.

An additional simplified calculation would be to take the difference in fuel consumption BTU, subtract the total recorded use, and allocate 1/(# of apartments) of the difference to each apartment. This takes care of boiler/system inefficiencies. If you want to be really picky you could also divi up the electrical costs by run time of each apartment.

It is not an inexpensive solution. A PC with interface cards would probably be my choice. It provides better data capture because of better sample rate and essentially unlimited cheap storage of data.

A grossly impricise method would be to monitor demand time per apartment and apportion fuel costs that way. Apartment size, set temperature, exterior exposure, etc. render this ineffective for any but the grossest analysis.

I guess the owners motive is a key component. Is he looking for an apartment that abuses the heat? Run time alone may help to zero in on this user. A smart thermostat that reports set temperatures could also isolate this. Someone setting the thermostat at 72 and leaving all the windows open should show up on run time.

Basically the BTUs are a cost of business. Distribute them by apartment size if nothing else. If a strange user skews the numbers so much that the owner can't rent the apartments, then get more creative/expensive to find the culprit.

Blackoakbob

btu meters.....

I have a name that may have what you need. OMEGA of Stanford, CT. 1-800-826-6342. I've purchased some pressure transducers from them and made up a remote display and alarm for header pressure at a local building. If they can't help you out nobody can. They have some pretty cool stuff for uses limited only by your imagination. Best Regards,

J.C.A._3

I stand .....

Fully corrected! My meager teachings have been nullified by the best and I humbly apologize. Thanks for giving me some new fodder PAH...Chris