Burnham panel radiator

Paul Pollets

The Burnham Panelray is a knock-off of the Runtal wall panels. I've installed many Runtals... they work better when installed on their own loop or piping, and not connected to copper fin tube baseboard on the same loop or piping. The reason is CFT has a different thermal mass than the steel panel radiator.

The Buderus wall panel radiators are also very cost effective, but have a min of 14" height.

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Mike B

Burnham panel radiator

I have an old 1920's home heated with gravity hot water with an addition from the 80's. My problem is that whoever installed baseboard heat in the addition put the baseboard fin tube on a cold partion wall and one outside wall, but it's not the coldest wall. (coldest wall is the glass doors to the outside. By calcs I should have enough baseboard but don't seem to keep the cold 70 problem from happening. The customer wants a solution; Anyone put Burnham Panel Radiators in... Think they'll act more radiant than convector?

Mike B

Burnham panel radiator

Okay, has anyone even installed a Burnham Panel Radiator yet?

Ohlove

cold room with baseboard

You do not say if the baseboard is on a seperate zone with circulator. If it is not that could be problem
If it is than could it be possible that the walls are not
insulated therefore heat is migrating to the outside. I would check on that if there is enough baseboard on job.

The Professor

Mike B

Panel radiators

I should be more specific; yes the baseboard is on it's own loop and pumped. I don't know why I mentioned the original gravity system, the baseboard is on a Laars JVS boiler...The drama maybe. We basically have three outside walls, one of which is double glazed window and french door for the majority of the wall. The Contractor who did the addition is a reputable firm and still in business... I believe the walls to be R-11. I did verify the attic, actually got lost in the insulation there was so much. As I stated previously, I don't know who the original mechanical contractor was or what he was thinking. My problem is I can't get baseboard on the coldest wall for air to move correctly, thus I am playing with the idea of radiant panels to see if I can make the people warm instead of the room.
Thanks for your input so far.
Mike

jeff_51

very important question????

does the addition have a basement or crawl and if a crawl, did they insulate the crawl and heat it or just insulate the floor joists? If the latter, yo will never get it heated right. If a crawl, you have to insulate the perimeter and put some heat in it. I have been fighting this out with contractors for over 25 yrs. When they listen to me, all is well, when they don't, cold room.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Have you considered adding a cast iron radiator to the addition and piping it to the converted gravity system? If you place it where it has a good "view" of the glass, much of its output will go into "tempering" that cold glass and you won't have any mixed type of radiation problems. The iron radiator need not be sufficient to heat the space by itself as you'll still have the baseboard zone. A tall, narrow radiator will be preferable to a short, long one in this application.

I've read one very well-conducted study of unorthodox placement of panel radiators. It found that tall, narrow panel radiators placed in full view of exposed walls and windows resulted in a much higher proportion of radiant heat compared to the "standard" placement of short, long panels under windows. The catch is that air infiltration must be reasonably low, e.g. that French door better be well sealed. While subjective measures (e.g. comfort) were not part of the study, the implication was that such placement results in a higher temperature of the exposed walls and glass thus implying that the "cold 70°" phenomenon is reduced or eliminated.

The NW facing sleeping porch in my house is 20' above grade with absolutely nothing to break the wind. 5 large N-facing windows; 3 large W-facing. One big, tall iron radiator in best view of the N glass. Original windows with standard glass, good weatherization and storms. Not only does "cold 70°" not exist; neither does "cold 65°"! Despite having more than 60% of its floor area in glass, it remains comfortable at surprisingly low air temperature in the coldest, windiest weather.

Mike B

The room is on slab, I will contact the GC and see if they remember if they did slab perimeter insulation or not. Good question.
Thanks
Mike

Mike B

Thanks for the input... do you happen to have a reference to the study you read? Can I find it on the web?
Mike

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Spent a bunch of time searching for it this morning. Could not find. Lost my bookmarks a while back when reloading. Will keep looking. It was either from Europe or Canada.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Here's One Link

Heat and Water

Still not the scientific study I remember.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

FINALLY found it

Low Temperature Vertical Water Radiator

Easier to read/understand than it first appears.

Every radiator on my 2nd floor is installed this way (in view of exposed walls/glass). If you search here you'll find an entire series of temperature measurements (air, walls, glass, etc.) taken in a space with such placement. The results do not conform well to the studies by the dead men.

The more old heating texts I obtain and study, the more I'm convinced that the dead men were mainly concerned with obtaining maximum output from very hot [read "steam"] radiators. While placing hot radiators underneath windows is certain to maximize convection and likely overall output as well, it's not necessarily the best for conservation and comfort. From most sources I find, the dead men believed that radiant heat from radiators passed through window glass. We now know that window glass is nearly opaque to radiation in the form of heat.

Many still insist that (even with low air infiltration) panel placement under windows is more comfortable because your skin "sees" the average of the temp of the panel, the glass, and the exposed wall. Problem is that rads under windows only encourage infiltration and even though warm air rises very near the glass, it doesn't tend to heat it much (that air-film problem) and such placement gives VERY little radiation to the exposed wall surfaces.

Put the panel in view of the exposed walls and glass and make it tall and wide and ensure that it is NOT COVERED and you temper the coldest portions of the space.

Note however that this is not work its best if the panel is driven to high temperature--convection will overtake radiation. While best with proportional control via a TRV or tight reset, it will also work quite well with standing iron in a gravity conversion system.