A non-heating plumbing puzzler

jammer_3

I would cut that bad boy out with a sawzall and fernco in a piece of clean ABS. Cast iron will split and corrode from the inside out and once it starts there is no stopping it with epoxy.

Every old house I ever done I ripped out the cast and started from scratch with clean ABS. It anin't hard to do.

michael_15

a puzzler

Now, I know this isn't heat related, but this happens to be one of the best sources for smart people I know of, and I've been wondering about a situation I've been having.

I have a 4" vertical cast-iron drain pipe with a tiny (non-visible) leak on the side. If left uncovered, I get maybe 1 drop of water leaking out every 10 minutes or so. This seemed to me like an easy problem to fix. Heck, it's a drain pipe that usually has no water in it, after all.

Anyway, I put a splotch of epoxy over the hole. This worked for a few days, until those tiny drops of water pushed off the epoxy. I didn't realize it had that kind of pressure behind it.

Figuring that it just had poor adhesion, I put more epoxy on it. Within a few days, it got pushed off and the leak continued.

I then took one of those black neoprene sleeves, coated the inside with a thin layer of silicone caulking (to prevent leaks), wrapped up the leaky spot, and tightened it nice and snug (around 60lb torque) with some metal O-rings. This appeared to work. . . until a few weeks later, when water (and not very clean water, at that) literally exploded out of the edges of the sleeve, spraying sludgy, rusty water out several feet and all over the walls.

Needless to say, I'm curious how a vertical drain pipe could possibly create so much water pressure, especially given that there's usually no water in the pipe. I did verify that it's open to the air at the far end. I suppose if I get sufficiently frustrated (or the walls get sufficiently disgusting), I'll just cut it out and replace it.

-Michael

Constantin

Sounds like a blockage

My first guess would be that this leak is low in the house, right?

If you have a blockage in the pipe downstream, you may in fact be building a large column of water within the home plumbing whenever you have a lot of water running through the system (showers, jacuzzies, etc.) That column of water will exert a lot of pressure if it's sufficiently high, causing water to squirt out of the hole and/or blow out your attempts to seal it.

Another potential problem may be the presence of a trap downstream that prevents water from passing into the sewer system due to the location of the home and the altitude of the sewer pipe relative to the home. For example, I know one HO who had to deal with basement flooding whenever there were severe thunderstorms in his area - the sewage system backed into his basement via the toilet.

The test is pretty simple, just run the water in the shower continuously and see if the water starts to back up into the pipe. If so, a call to roto-rooter or a plumber with a scope that can determine if there are tree roots or other things obstructing your sewage pipe. Or, if you have a septic system, the tank may be sending you a message along the lines of "empty me!"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Probably a Long-Shot

But if you find that there isn't a blockage, check for settlement and/or structural failure around the stack. I've found large vertical cracks in soil stacks in more than one old house due to such--generally (sorry to say) from structural problems caused by the plumber.

Haven't been around when these cracks actually open, so don't know if it's a gradual process, sudden occurrence or some of both. If the cast iron is moving it would certainly explain epoxy "popping off".

J.C.A._3

Or maybe....

A backup causing warm/hot water to get stuck at the crack point and the pipe expanding enough to pop the epoxy out?
Chris

Rookie

Mike T?

I can't believe Mike T placing blame on poor old Dead men plumbers!What about the carpenters ? Remember the first Heat Men were plumbers and by the way, you do awesome heat work but Dude I have seen some of your plumbing work, good thing the plumbing police haven't raided your house! This problem is very tough to diagnose, with out photos, can you post some? What are you using for the repair some hardware store epoxy ( try fiberglass or propoxy), are you preparing the surface correctly? This crack may run the legth of the pipe, cast iron usually deosn't rust away with out some help .You may have a clog, but don't call roto rooter get some recommendations on some local plumber, there must be a good plumber around. Infact ask your heat man or electrician, they will know who to call.

Al Letellier_9

stack leak

It's not so much pressure that's causing the leak. Water falling through a vertical pipe actually spirals down the outside edges of the pipe. That cast iron stack is very porous and is most likely in bad shape along its entire lenght. Putting on that clamp with "metal o-rings" to 60 lbs of torque almost certainly opened up a whole series of cracks in that stack pipe. If it's service weight pipe, it's gone !!! Even if it's x-heavy cast, it's gone. There is no easy fix, trust me, I've been doing this for 40+ years. Call in a pro and get it replaced.

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bob young

mystery leak

sounds like a partial inline stoppage or trap stoppage. any fixtures below this point ? call a plumber !!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Jim. I won't dispute yours nor others assessments. Time again for me to say that I'm primarily a hard-core, DIY homeowner with a passions for "dead man" heat and old houses.

Nearly every photo I've ever posted here is my design and execution in one long-standing (11 years now) project. Things are inspected once they're finally ready to be covered and the supports you see are not the final. You will find DWV lines installed in ways CERTAIN to cause structural problems after a generation or so. My book shelves are filled with expensive code books and they regularly rotate in and out of the "reading room".

Bill_14

Correct

You are 100% correct Al...no question about it!

Bill Russell

michael_15

all very insightful

It may be a stoppage; I haven't thought of that given the location of the leak. The pipe runs through a first floor closet (services a 2nd floor bathroom), and the leak is near the top (a good 10 feet above ground level). The pipe drops directly into the main sewer line, so I guess the easiest way for me to check for a stoppage is to run hot water in the shower and see if the pipe below the leak heats up!

I don't have a picture on me, but the description is easy. There is a tiny closet with a pipe in the corner and brown rust stains splattered all over the walls.

I'm somewhat suspicious that the pipe may be a good 100+ years old -- it's in the oldest part of the house, which is 150 years old (and services the only bathroom the old house had). Given that, I'd more or less decided to have a professional cut out and replace the pipe to avoid future problems. However, I was interested in what was causing the symptoms I observed!

I'll let y'all know if the pipe gets cut out and we find some dead birds blocking it up or something. Thanks,

-Michael

Larry Weingarten

It may be...

... a far flung thought, but it sounds like a corrosion process, possibly involving bacteria, that is generating gas/pressure far over what normal stack pressure could be. A test might be to quit using that bathroom for a few days and see if the problem stops. If not, than it must have little to do with the flow in the pipe. Ultimately, the fix is still to replace the (corroding, blocked or haunted) pipe ;~)

Yours, Larry

jim lockard

if its

that old you may have a ghost. Try flushing some garlic oil down the pipe or wrap the pipe in garlic cloves.
If that does not work you may wish to call in a local plumber to perform an exercizem. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Mt. Falls Mikey

Be careful when the pipe is cut...

because old cast iron pipe will crush and shatter when you use standard chain-type pipe cutters. The pipe erodes internally and gets VERY thin. Have seen pinhole leaks like this on cast and DWV copper as well-good luck!

[Deleted User]

I'm thinking he meant...

60 inch pounds, which is 5 foot pounds, which IS the standard of torque on SS band clamps. The band clamps I work with (you too) would fail if you tried 60 feet of tork.

Depending upon where it is that the leak is seen, it could be seeing a lot of hydraulic action. Try using JB weld quick set epoxy and see what happens.

ME

michael_15

bacteria

Well, I do know that it leaks slowly after several days of non-use. It seems to leak at about the same rate 24 hours a day regardless of bathroom use. . . .

But then again, it could always be the ghost. It is an old house. . .

-Michael

bob young

jury riggers

what could be more amusing than one homeowner giving another homeowner advice. fernco are illegal in nyc and for good reason. amatuers that install incorrectly measured piping with misaligned joints. and the next guy that buys the house with all the jury rigged plumbing is the real victim. abs ??? why not real pipe such as cast iron or simply use hose.

Bob Sweet

I sure would like to see

some respect givin to the plumbing trade, I agree 100% with you bob.

I dont understand why anyone in the plumbing trade would splice in a piece of plastic pipe in lieu of using cast iron.

Why??

It's either fear,ignorance or laziness.

If your a tradesmen, try to put some integrity into your work and use the appropriate material.

If your not in the trades hire a licensed plumber to do the job properly.

jeff_51

hey Bob I'm going to pull your chain a little bit here

Are you one of those guys who still swear by galv water lines instead of copper or Pex?

bob young

galvarized pipe

strictly copper ,Jeff. pex not approved [yet ] in n.y.c. although i would fight it as long as i could most probably. no galvanized installed since the sixties for me. had a garden apt. complex with a bad water condition and we used wrought iron gal. only lasted maybe twenty years though. when you ran galvanized any leaks would rust up overnight. we did use it sometimes for chilled water tower lines if specs called for it. give 'em what they want or lose the job. sometimes for exterior gas lines. all depends. some guys hate to thread . i don't care. i got a folding rule & let the boys cut to sketch. lol

Bob Sweet

Hey Jeff I'll play along

I'm going to put it in my perspective, even if we get off the subject a little bit.
Lets take galv. pipe for a moment(I'm sure I'll attract a few rebuttles) in my estimation it has a shelf life of let's say 50yr's,I think thats a fair asssumption in my experience. That's not a bad track record.
Copper, in my neck of the woods in some areas of the city is failing miserably, long before the 50yr mark, in some cases 12 to 15 yrs due to thinning walls and catasrtophic failure leading to very intrusive and EXPENSIVE repipes(slab on grade is the norm here). Not a good track record.
Pex, well thats what I repipe with and think it's the best thing since sliced bread, however time WILL tell.
Back to the plastic vs c.i. issue,I cant think of a single reason to splice in a piece of plastic on a c.i. system,what are you going to gain? I see it as the dumbing down of a skill level that is slowly fading away, I enjoy c.i. work I think it is an impressive system that takes a whole lot more skill to master than plastic.I understand that it cost more,it's more labor intensive, it's heavy, it's hard to work with.
Imo it's worth the effort.
Why not rip out the old steam systems and replace them with a 90% eff, dc driven motor, constant circulation forced air system.That will deliver better eff? Comfort O.K., c.i. is quieter.
But it aint right. imho.

Brian (Tankless)

\"Still leaks after days of non-use\"

Michael, do you have a central A.C. air handler (or some kind of sistern like we have have in the UK) in the attic with the condensate (or overflow) draining into this stack pipe?

Just a thought.

I won't lose sleep over this, but then again, it is 1.07AM Louisiana time :O)

You gotta a downstream blockage, buddy.

Get it fixed, you're keeping folk up nights

Sleepless in Swampland.

FRANK_24

As an ole "stick" man, [rather than tape], I've seen many a length of old CI pipe develope longitudinal [spelling?]cracks. In the old days, CI pipe was formed in a mould and sometimes the wall thickness wasn't true. As the building settles, stress increases and something has to give. Little by little, but something has to give. How many times have you guys seen a joint separate, showing the lead and sometimes the oakum? As I see it, the job is to replace the entire length of pipe. There are numerous reasons for pipe failure, so don't go crazy wondering why, just fix the problem. As mentioned before use a sawzall and cut off the old joints also. Old CI will crush, no doubt about it. You'll be up s___s creek if a piece of that CI falls into the run. Use "No-Hub" extra heavy X No-Hub coulpings [approved in NYC]. They have dissimiliar dimentions to accomodate the different pipe OD's. You should call a licensed plumber, but knowing how much we charge, I can understand you wanting to give it a try on your own. Someone else will be more than happy to go your home to repipe afterwards.

{Side bar to Dan} Can you install a spell check on this site so us professionals don't look like fools?

michael_15

\"oozes\", then, rather than leaks

since there's no water coming down the pipe to do the leaking.

There's no A/C in the house; the only thing that could be going down the pipe other than bathroom water is rainwater.

I'm reasonably sure there's no blockage; if we empty the bathtub when full of hot water, the downstream pipe in the basement (goodness knows I don't know what this stuff is called) gets warm within seconds.

-Michael

michael_15

I'm not so reckless

Fear not, I would never endeavor to replace the pipe myself. I've already decided to get a professional to replace it, but was interested in hearing what people thought was the origin of the problem . . .

I only like doing things to the house when I'm quite confident I don't run the risk of breaking things. Thus, I'll paint. Or vacuum. Or wash windows. Of course, the last time I tried to wash the windows, the window pane fell out and fell three stories before shattering on the driveway. . .

-Michael

billco

fernco's are not illegal in other jurisdictions, so what can be more amusing than a "pro" from nyc assuming that he knows what is up in the rest of the country and being wrong. Hey - wake up. Get over it. Plumbing ain't rocket science!

bob young

a fernco story

When a fitting or connector is illegal there is a reason. the reason in this case is a fernco encourages misaligned joints and ill measured piping. it is too forgiving to insure a proper job that will work well & be trouble free. stoppages are almost a given. the irony is the one that will suffer is the present & the future homeowner. are they not entitled to a good installation ? it is great for the plumbers they will always have work correcting jobs like this not to mention all the future emergency stoppages and water damage that comes along for the ride. you are absolutely correct plumbing is not rocket science but if not done correctly you might get some MOLD and DISEASE. This advice is from the heart and free of charge.

Murph'_5

Candy *ss Plumbers

Heya Bob, Isn't this where we met. Give em' what they want or lose the job!! I can see it in a few years in my area these guys will make a killing and it will emulate lawn services. trucks loaded with plastic and cutters and the drywallers will follow them. less than twenty years on the ABS and twenty-five or so on the crappy copper put out in the seventies. most of the repair fittings are not far behind. residual accounts

(SOS)

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bob young

the candy *ssers

Hey Butch, yeah some things never change! glad you are alive & well. you remember that huh !! lol

Dave Stroman

You need to take an angle grinder and grind off the tar coating in the area of the leak. Then, with the grinder and a thin blade, cut a thin slit right where the leak is. Then fill the slit and surounding area with epoxy putty. Push the putty into the slit.

The grinder is also a good way to cut the pipe when it is too thin to use a soil pipe cutter.

Dave in Denver