buderus or viesman

Glen

is not the real argument. IMHO and that of a dear friend - also closely tied to this industry - we must ask ourselves and the client - what is it I/you need?
"None of the posters talk about discovering the clients felt needs (in contrast to "what the customer needs") and developing those needs. When we have a clear understanding of the client's needs and have developed those needs to the point of being asked for help then we can offer from our
pallette those items that best meet both of our needs. Somehow we have to begin to move to helping the customer understand the concept of win-win, where we the expert need to win as much as the customer does. If our menu is too extensive our bottom line will inevitable be compromised. Our clients cannot benefit directly from the suppliers'
extensive warehouses due to their Eastern locations. The Wholesale partners are positioned in the food chain but they do not inventory adequate supporting inventory either so we have to become mini remote warehouses for them. The more variety we try to offer the more bits and pieces we have to carry along ourselves. I am not convinced that V is the only solution but it is at least an acceptable one." All that from a dyed in the wool big V fan and like Constantin - the product of choice in his own humble abode. I too feel we get too hung up on product - and while I choose the V first - perhaps the client really needs a good Biasi and control system instead.
We are all good or perhaps great tradesmen/tradespersons - but in my experience rather sh-tty sales people. If the euro models were so great they should sell themselves - rather it has fostered the need to get better (here in NA) and elsewhere, both in manufacturing and the quality of installation. I would hazard the guess that most wallies - lurkers included - have already accepted the challenge -
We could reduce this to a Chev/Dodge/Ford debate - but isn't competition wonderfully necessary - for all of us???

lenny_4

what do you guys think

We always argue at the shop whos better viesman or buderus. I like buderus but some of the other guyds like viesman.Viesman are more expensive and seem very tempermental when it comes programing time.
Just looking for a little feedback on the pros and cons of each.

J.C.A._3

Depends.....

For sophisticated and extensive different temperatures,as long as the customer would pay for it I would use Viessman. I like their plug and play controls and sensors.

Buderus gives all the bells and whistles too, but the homeowner has usually seen an episode or two of This Old House, and remembers the Viessman name. That alone gives them a mindset...until they get a proposal and see the cost.

When they start shopping for something that will do the same things for a different price,they start to ask questions and that's when it gets interesting.

Both companies have a great line of product. Both companies have brought the American boiler manufacturers around to re-thinking their lines and making both better, and more efficient products. With the cost of fuel rising at the rates we are seeing, the more efficient the product, the more the customer will take it into consideration.

I think that it all comes down to what the customer wants, and the contractor showing them the best product for their particular needs. Being able to service, and parts availability would be my next criteria. (noone likes to be without heat or hot water for 2 days while a "part" is being shipped from God knows where.) If the local supplier has the stock on hand, it goes a long way to selling either, or any other brand. JMHO. Chris (diplomatic way of saying...give the customer what they want.........but make sure you let them know the pitfalls of any brand BEFORE you take the job!) JCA

Constantin

Hmmmm....

I am not that familiar with all the bells and whistles that Buderus can offer on their unit. However, I did come away with a couple of impressions (that may or may not be accurate) when I researched boilers for my remodel two years ago.

At the time, I was looking into what kind of boilers would be best suited to interface with the RFH system I was going to install in the house. Thus, a boiler capable of dealing with low-water temperatures would be ideal. I also wanted to heat with oil, as the historical pricing trends gave it a distinct advantage in the Northeast. Our heat loss calculation was around 105kBTU though later insulation material improvements later dropped that to about 80kBTU on a design day. Domestic hot water was to be furnished via an indirect water heater.

Based on feedback from here, Oiltechtalk, and my own research, I narrowed the initially-wide field to a Buderus G115, the Viessmann Vitola, and the Burnham Opus. Condensing oil boilers were left at the wayside as oil techs recounted the many horrors they had encountered at the hands of sulfur-corroded secondary HX's. Plus, my heatloss was a tad high at the time for the Monitor FCX to heat the whole home. I also subsequently passed on the Opus because I wasn't convinced that the boiler would be a success with the way it was being marketed.

That left the G115 and the Vitola. In the end, I have the nod to the Vitola because:

• it doesn't need pump logic to prevent flue gas condensation
  
• the tank can remain at any temperature you want it to be at (lower standby losses)
  
• it can monitor flue gas temperatures to signal the need for a HX cleaning
  
• its seamless integration with the 4-way valve that controls the RFH water temperature.

Plus, the functions of the Vitotronic 200 microcomputer that I expect to interface with a lot are simple enough for me to understand. The underlying computer is smart enough to work with innovations we have yet to see on the oil-side of the business in the US, such as 2-step burners, modulating burners, etc. All of them are set with simple, virtually-foolproof, plug-and-play assemblies that underscore the enormous amount of engineering that has gone into the controls. That said, I am also going to go to Viessmanns controls school to learn the deeper meaning of it all.

The proprietary nature of the Viessmann controls may be a blessing to techs who don't have to worry as much about homeowners or hacks fiddling around or installing the equipment. That said, a USB, Bluetooth, or Serial datalink to a Laptop

Unknown

IMO

The BIG V is better for what I do. I've done a bunch of Buderus as you can see on my link below but, it really depends on the installer. I do both and each one I hope was appropriate for the dwelling.

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Unknown

Viessmann vs Buderous

Constatin,

I would love to have your permission to reprint your reply.

That said, you made the comment "...stimulated the likes of Burnham to release a easy-to-clean, "euro-style" 3-pass oil." Did you see that now WeilMclain is introducing their own three pass boiler? Have you looked at the casting for both these companies? I thinks that saying Buderous vs Viessmann will be like saying WeilMcLain vs Burnahm.

To add to your comments, reasons why I chose to be a Viessmann distributor: Viessmann has a huge new facitlity in RI showing their support of the USA, Viessmann offers year round contractor training at a nominal cost in a state of the art training area INCLUDING each of their boilers live firing, Viessmann stands behind their product 2000%, Viessmann takes care of their problems what few arise, Viessmann has great ethics and supports their wholesalers and installers, Viessmann delivers at a better then 98% rate, Viessmann stocks ALL of the parts for ALL of their boilers, Viessmann has great Tech Staff, Viessmann has James Brown, James McCarthy, Ed Nordstrom, Cheryl, Judy & Mary! Viessmann is good to their word, Viessmann has never sold directly to a HO (or Contractor).

Best Regards,

wheels

Dan_15

For conmparing apples to apples, do not forget that the Buderus G215 is designed to handle low return tems as well. This debate has been aired several times on the Wall; there was a posting several months ago with 40+ well-reasoned replies if anyone can still find it. Although not satisfyingly conclusive, I think the answer is that "it depends". My system is extremely simple: high mass water volume, single heating zone, indirect DHW, no outdoor reset, no pump logic. When I was getting bids to replace my 80 y.o. potbelly, I concluded that both brands would be equally efficient and lasting for my simple application, and Buderus won because they had a much better price point. However, I understand that many homeowners with more sophisticated applications believe that V is better designed to handle them. I cant comment on the higher end of the spectrum.

Constantin

To add to the above...

... I am remiss in having not mentioned the WeilMcLain Gold series, which like the MPO from Burnham is likely to be a great, cost-effective boiler. Furthermore, I cannot emphasize enough the professionalism and support that Viessmann, Burnham, and Buderus (VB&B) have shown both here and in my experience. It is likely that Weil-McLain isn't a bad company either, I've simply never heard from them directly here, the way I have heard from VB&B. Perhaps they have a company policy against posting online...

The proximity of Viessmann's US headquarters to me (just an hour south), the lack of complaints regarding parts shortages, etc. was quite important to me. I have been left high-and-dry by proprietary systems before, so being able to get whatever I need from the source in a timely manner has become very important to me. So, it is hard to understate the appreciation I show Jim McCarthy, Ed Nordstrom, etc. for following up on issues like the defective Vitosol tubes, etc. in a friendly, timely, and professional manner.

I also appreciate the fact that Mr. McCarthy and the rest of the organization were OK with teaching me about Viessmann products and I look forward to taking more classes at Viessmann. For those of you who would like to work on Viessmann products, I cannot emphasize the amount of great tips, knowledge, etc. that is to be gained from visiting a two-day seminar being hosted by someone as dynamic as Jim McCarthy.

That said, every person I have met in the trade that teaches, be it Chuck Shaw, Dan Holohan, George Lanthier, Alan Mercurio, Glenn Stanton, Tim McElwain, Alex Marx, etc. are passionate about what they do, and they're good at it too. It simply amazes me how many companies pass up the (sometimes free!) opportunity to make their technicians better at working on equipment. A small efficiency gain, one less phone call, etc. multiplied across hundreds of jobs in a year makes a huge difference in employee productivity. But hey, I am likely preaching to the choir here.

I would also like to elaborate a bit more on the Monitor FCX, which is a great boiler. Having spoken to several very happy customers, Mr. Caruso, etc. its become apparent that the FCX is quite capable of handling everything but the worst sludge when it comes to oil delieveries. Had I done more research into how to reduce the heat loss out of the structure, perhaps I could have made an FCX work. However, at decision time, I was still looking at a net 105kBTU/hr design day heat loss, a whole 25% above the capacity of the FCX.

Lastly, my situation is but one datapoint, driven by a specific strategy to improve energy efficiency via RFH in a home while using oil heat. If the emitters had been different (i.e. steam rads, for example), there would not have been a discussion of Buderus vs. Viessmann, because neither sells a steamer into the US market. Similarly, if the fuel choice had been different, one could have gotten into a whole other debate about the pluses and minuses of the various offerings on the US market.

Please feel free to print my responses and all the best, Wheels. Cheers! CvW

Ragu

Just Back From Training

Timely topic for me, as I just got back from Viessmann's Basic School, and have a lot of information to digest.

I've installed several of each brand, but none of the installations required sophisticated controls, so I can't comment on that aspect.

I would, however, say that the Silver line showed me better manufacturing processes all the way from the block to the shipping pallet. I think that they are much more serious, as I am.

Additionally, I've received much better support at the Supply House level and at the Rep level. Furthermore, I have yet to see a Silver installation in my area performed by a hack, and a have seen a few Blues that seriously had the blues. The guys who put these units in should not have been able to have purchased them.

Our local large oil company has been selling Blue for several years and NOT ONE of their techs has been in for training. That may be a local issue, but it should be dealt with. We are starting to see the availability of some seriously efficient equipment, and continuing training is a must. I am but a lowly sole proprietor (a la Constantin), but Viessmann offered to invest in me. I appreciate that, and I will invest in them.

Nron_13

that is what its is all about the 2 way street with the people making the stuff supporting the guys who install it in the way they designed it to go in , after all if you dont teach people how to use what you sell, how can you complain if its installed wrong ?

dconnors

Despite on going classes

We offer training every month. I dont think the contracting public wants us to decide who installs and who doesnt. We leave that question to the trades. All we can do is try to educate as many as possible. check our training site on the web page for information.

Joe Grosso

You're absolutely right...

... most brands, if installed and maintained properly will delight their owners with years of trouble-free performance. At the end of the day, the name on the outside is less relevant to the homeowner than the reliable, comfortable, and efficient heat it sends through the house or into the shower.

However, there are some subtle differences between brands which may or may not influence your buying decision, as they may or may not be relevant to your situation. For example, the benefits of the Vitola for my application was its low-temperature compatibility, the superior control system, etc. For those of us without low-temp heat emitters, many of these benefits are simply lost.

So, my view is that the brand matters less than what the brand can do for you. For example, the new Burnham MPO is a very compelling boiler and I expect it will give Buderus (and to a lesser extent Viessmann) a run for its money.

Joe Grosso

Good viewpoint...

... I will simply add that question of what heating system gets selected and why is precisely a question of how aware the consumers are what their heating system can do for them and why a good installer is worth the premium over a hack.

Through advertising, status-seeking, etc. there are plenty of people who'll take on debt to buy their cars but balk at paying good money for a good heating system. One does not confer the status that the other one does, apparently.

I like the fact that there are many boiler brands available on the US market. Let the brands differentiate themselves and allow the tradespeople and consumers choose from a wide palette of brands, models, and sizes. If anything, I wish we had more brands here (which would necessitate a larger market) to stimulate even more competition.

Mark Hunt

Excellent post Glen

Mark H

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Steve Ebels_3

Depends entirely

On the application. What are the parameters of the job and what does it need productwise? Is it all high temp, a mix, all low temp. Both are excellent products but each line has advantages in certain areas. Sure I'd love to use Viessmann on every job but sometimes that level of sophistication isn't called for. Sometimes the budget just isn't there either.

I have run across only one other company in an unrelated industry that stands behind their product at the same level as Viessmann. I spent 25 years in the hardware business and literally dealt with everything from soup to nuts so I have a very broad background on which to base that statement. The Viessmann organization is without peer from the bottom up and the top down.

vtheat

viessman support

i believe in support from a boiler company and have found that with viessmann , also a wide range of products from price point boilers to custom built designs for trophy homes

J.C.A._3

I don't know Glen,

I thought I made those points in my post above. Am I missing something?

We strive to give the customer what they need, as opposed to what will make the bottom line better, and in doing so, offer a wide range of product.

We also happen to live right between both silver and blue but with our suppliers, that hasn't ever been a problem.(major criteria). Chris

Glen

Perhaps it's my solid western Canadian view point (often jaundiced) rushing forward - eh! I am one of a few OEM commercial burner and controls guys for the big V - serving Alberta and B.C. - for which I get superb support from all offices - Langley and Toronto. I do not see the same level of customer service or commitment from suppliers moving residential products - of either color. It's just a commodity to them - and not the source of warmth/comfort and reliability that we try to sell as contractors. I am merely pointing out that we all need to get better - on a continual basis. Constantin is a rare bird indeed that has taken the time to fully educate himself with current and appropriate information - he would be a pleasure to work with - unfortunately - his quest is not the norm. I have met just one other client that shares his joy of learning (civil engineer) - she too was armed to the teeth with information and ideas. And when a client comes to the table armed with such info and ideas - they challenge me as a comfort provider and as a tradesperson - and that's priceless learning. Where is the challenge at the supplier or wholesale level???? And if parts are actually needed - they are always in Toronto or RI or Langley - or Allendorf. So my real rant - is that we position ourselves somewhere at the top of the food chain - having a symbiotic relationship with our clients - and are largely viewed as the "experts". And we must make time to go to RI, toronto or Langley to train and update ourselves - directly with the product supplier - because the wholesaler is no longer the source of our information and education (and don't ask for parts either!).

Constantin

Thanks for the kind words...

... I think it's only a matter of time before larger installers (i.e. those with significant turnover) will start stocking parts on commission sent directly from manufacturers. Order entry can be done via a secure web-site, response time be minimized by using someone like UPS to handle the logistics.

We've discussed this at length before... the good supply houses replied that they provide far more than just parts and boilers... training, design, advice, etc. which are valuable, particularly to those who are entering the trade.

However, as video conferencing is steadily progressing in the direction of consumer-levels, it's only a question of time before manufacturers will be able to video-conference their training seminars and thus reach far more technicians (and still interact with them in ways similar to a real classroom) at a time of convenience, etc. which will marginalize the role of supply houses further.

There are some ways for supply houses to respond, the best IMHO being able to offer superior service, restocking customers automatically, etc.