Why am I so stubborn

Cosmo_3

I am sitting here wondering if I did the right thing....

I have had an excellent relationship with a builder for a year now, and now I might have screwed things up. The job is a 16k square foot house, we are talking about 25 tons of cooling. He wants some radiant here and there, with most of the monster house heated w/ hot water coils in the A/C ductwork. I quoted him a price on a chilled water A/C system, and using the same chilled water piping to heat the ductcoils in the winter. It makes sense to me, and this way I can eliminate running 5-6 sets of refrigerant lines to who knows where the condensing units might be.

He tells me that he needs to install split-system a/c, period.

I told him that I respect his opinion, however I do not agree with it. The water chiller will greatly simplify the mechanical installation, will be much more efficient since the water chiller can be sized smaller than the total design tonnage through the principal of diversity. Not all the zones will ever be calling for a/c at the same time, and the chiller is staged with a bank of compressors to further stage supply w/ demand. It just makes sense to me over trying to run 6 sets of freon lines through an already difficult framing detail to one area of the house, further more the area where the condensing units will be installed will not be known when the major work is being done.

Anyway didn't mean to be too technical, the point is I told him that unless I can do it my way I am not interested. Now I sit and wonder if I just threw away a good relationship for my stubborness......

Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

bob young

change orders

Sometimes you just got to give an ignorant client exactly what they want. you can always redo it when they finally realize they were wrong. i love nothing more than change orders. that is where the money is.

Al Letellier

wrong thing

Here's what I did with a similar situation......First and foremost, I never install mechanicals in ANY house if I can't meet with the owner ahead of time (I never did spec housing). For every "nail pounder" I've walked away from for situations just like yours, the work got replaced three fold....no kidding!!!!
It can be a tough thing to do if things are slow (wish I could remember when that happened last), but stick to your guns and be the pro you want to be. It gets done right, or it gets done by someone else !!!!
Good luck.

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Cosmo_3

thanks Al

The problem here is this builder has never done such a big house, and the homeowner is not only clueless but is also a mortgage banker so this house could be sold at any time during construction. I can install a jungle of condensing units, and it would work fine. My problem is I just don't agree with it, and with the tight schedules I know this job will have so the builder can get his bank draws fast I don't feel like working my a$$ off or worse lose money on this big job and all the while know that I didn't like it to begin with.

Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

hr

I had a similar

job this summer. However the mechanical engineer designed a two pipe system that was either heat or cool with a MANUAL change over valve.

I had a small portion of the 8000 square foot home in radiant. Baths, kitchen and entry.

Mostly because of the cumbersome two pipe system the HVAC contractor convinced the HO and builder to go with 5- VS Carrier systems. He zoned them and did a nice job, but there is never a "great" place to locate 5 condensors.

Too bad one is right outside the master bedroom window!

I felt the engineer was on the right track with a single chiller. Although he also had a $6000 stainless tube and shell HX bundle running off a DHW boiler to do the hydronic heating. Kind of a long, and expensive way around that!

He got hung up on that two pipe that just wasn't a good idea in this frequently changing weather pattern around here.

If it is meant to be, the GC will get over it and see your concern and commitment. Maybe

hot rod

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Steamhead

Stick to your guns

You're the pro and therefore expected to know how to do this right. If they don't respect that, you don't need to be working for them. There are hacks all over the place- if that's what he wants he can go hire one, and call you to fix it when the hack screws the job up.

Dave Yates (PAH)

A call

Call your GC friend up and explain your concerns over lunch. If he sees it your way, that's great. In the end though, it's a decision the GC and homeowner must make & I'd sooner get the work for the sub-superior system than walk away from an ongoing relationship.

At least you will have offered them nirvana while they might decide upon Dante's Inferno!

Either way - you get the work with the potential for future improvements on creature comforts.

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Cosmo_3

Thanks Hot Rod

Yeah I figured on automatic changeover, with A/B valving to divert hot/cold water as needed. The piping would be homerun from each fancoil back to the boiler room.

Anyway, I am already doing the plumbing and hydronic heating in the house and maybe I am looking for a reason to diversify my job eggs to a couple more baskets than this one house. Although I like having total control over a home's mechanicals, maybe this is one I should step back from a little you know?

Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Cosmo_3

Thanks Dave

I know your right, and I do plan on taking him to breakfast in the morning and have a chat.

Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

bob_44

Cosmo

for what it's worth i've done a few jobs with a two pipe system and the results were not the best. I found four pipe and seperate heat and cool coils makes a much better system. The problem with two pipe is all heat or all cool plus change over can be tricky to automate. If you want to see a condensing boiler just get the change over wrong! bob

Mad Dog_2

It depends how bad you need the job Cosmo

If you have to do it, do it, but with the caveat that this is NOT the most cost/energy efficient way to do it - make it clear. My heating proposals usually provide atleast 2 options........The inexpensive less efficient option and the more upfront but more efficent option. I don't want to hear it a year later from the HO or some other busy body that we didn't give them the most efficeint system or that they paid too much. Don't bend over backwards too much for that builer cosmo. Some are better than others...but in the end they are all the same....ITS ALL ABOUT THEM..Mad Dog

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brad rutherford_2

16k

A selling point for your better idea:
1. Noise from chillers can be isolated by location
2. Fewer house wall penetrations
3. Greater control of air enviroment due to modulating ability.
4. Chiller tons typically smaller than sum total of seperate condenser units

Unknown

price and benefits

cosmo,

ake sure when you do lunch you have pricing and spec sheets on both your way and his way. Then sell him on the benefits of your way so that he can present it to his customer. This way maybe you can keep the job AND he can make more profit.

Spend a little time educationg and maybe you can sell more of these jobs through your GC :-)

wheels

Kal Row

sell the HO on redundancy..

with chillers, you have the option of staging a bunch of smaller chillers, coupled with a pair of parallel primary pumps - you have eliminated any single point of failure - with hydronics all options are always open, you can use a geothermal heat pump heater/chiller, and with water cooled condensers, you have the option of running pool water through it – heat the pool and cool the house, and – when pool hits 85, switch water to an ambient air coil -

and if they put radiant into ceilings you can split the return and mix the water, so that you can run 60f water into ceiling radiant and 45f water into fin coils with really low fan speeds for quiet air drying - they will complain it’s too cold guaranteed

you simple cant beat the quietness and efficiency – its physics

you can also get religious – and say – that’s the way god did it by covering the earth with 4/5 water – hydronics rocks!!! – the oceans can soak up anything humans can throw at it – all those panicked environmentalists are out of their minds – I so laugh at them when they start to rant…

Cosmo_3

Update

So we had breakfast and all seems well.

I am not doing the a/c ductwork, which is for the best because like I said in a previous post even if I got the job getting things done on time would have been a problem with some of the other work I have going. I wish I could figure out why some of these guys never ask an opinion on what type of mechanical system fits the building, BEFORE the G.C. writes up the specs on his contract. Anyway I just got plans on the next one and that is all radiant, so I guess I can't be greedy.

The other nice thing is the baseboard to radiant remodel job I quoted last month just called and we are signing contracts tonight....

Alls well that ends well for now, however I still think sometimes I can be more stubborn than a donkey...hee haw.


Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.