Wet Head Engineer, What do you think...............

John Ruhnke

Carl,

I looked into that. I would have to spend many years in college to learn the info I need to just pass the test. The problem is that nothing on the test has anything to do with hydronics. In the mean time I would have to give up more important things to learn information that I don't plan on using. I would become a worse hydronic designer because I would forget many hydronic things to make room for all the new unrelated knowledge. If I wanted to make a career change then going to college is good, but I don't. I just want to become even better with hydronics. I want to keep learning, but I want to keep learning about hydronics.

JR

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John Ruhnke

Wet head Engineer................

Its 3Am in the morning I have insomnia and I can't stop thinking. So I thought that maybe I would just blurt out what is on my mind. You may think this is some crazy thinking.

Some people would like to see a society of class's. The new system is based on where you went to college and what degree that you have. Rich parents pay absurd amounts of money time and effort to get a kid through Harvard and a law degree. This is considered the top of the class's. On the bottom we have the people who don't even go to college, the trades people so to speak.

All the so called "good for you" recommendations point to college. Teachers, Guidance Councilors, Parents and everyone else advise college. So obviously the people that go against this better advice must be wrong. Right? They must be less smart, lazier , unable to stick with goals, unambitious or something like that. So they should be punished for that Right? An accountant or Engineer bills out his labor at $150 per hour. A Harvard Lawyer bills out at $300.00 per hour. Ah the system of class's. An Electrician or Plumber? $90 per hour. See how all of this works?

Benjamin Franklin was a printer. He served an Apprenticeship. He wrote a lot of articles way back when. He was a politician and inventor too. Most likely Ben was the founder of the American Dream, everyone created equal, no class's. The Wright Bros invented Aeronautical Engineering along with the air plane. There impeller that they made is as efficient as some impellers on modern day airplanes 90 years later and designed by the worlds best Aeronautical Engineers today, who went to college. Who were the Wright Bros? They owned a bicycle shop. They never went to college they served a apprenticeship. They sold, repaired and built bicycles and parts right out of there Bicycle machine shop. They were trades people. Bill Gates drooped out of Harvard to start Microsoft in his Freshman year. Thomas Edison was home schooled and never went to college. Einstein went to college but did poorly. Einstein was always looking out the window and seemed to be in a far away place said some of his teachers.

So is this system of class's really best for America? Yes college is great. People with a good education is vital to the success of this country. I don't think we could have reached the moon without there help. All of that science and math is really important. In fact I will go as far as to say for the majority of people college is best.

The problem comes in the discrimination that goes on against the person who doesn't go to college in today's society. They are severely limited in the job offers they have or are chosen for. It is flat out wrong and bad for this country. A person should be judged for his capabilities and not his degrees. Education is important but COLLEGE IS NOT THE ONLY EDUCATION OUT THERE. IT IS THE VARIETY OF EDUCATION THAT MAKES THIS COUNTRY SO GREAT!!!!!

Bill Gates learned Computers by networking through the Lakeview Computer club with other Computer Geeks of the time. They bought and read books. This material was not available in any school. Bill Gates received a very valuable education but the majority of it didn't come from his teachers in Lakeview or Harvard. He joined the computer club at Harvard and instead of going to his class's he spent his days with Paul Allen programming part of the Harvard computer to think like a small computer. Then they wrote a Disk operating system (DOS) that could run on that portion of the computer. That version of DOS was used to launch Microsoft. Bill contributed his valuable software education to the success of this great nation and made good money doing it.

Frank Blau did a lot of good for Trades Contractors. He taught us business, taught us how to make money. I was a member of Contractors 2000 for 2 years. Sure it cost me $14,000 to join but I increased my gross profit by $50,000 in my first year without adding any employees. It was great!! I received a valuable education in business from those people. Frank really raised the bar and scored one for us trades people!

What is the difference between a radiant designer and a radiant engineer? They both do the same things. Why is it illegal to call a contractor a engineer in the state of Connecticut? But a janitor can be called a sanitary engineer? I'll tell you why. A COLLEGE EDUCATED ENGINEER DOESN'T FEAR A JANITOR AS BEING THOUGHT HIS EQUAL SO HE DOESN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. A COLLEGE EDUCATED ENGINEER FEARS THAT A CONTRACTOR MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO AS GOOD A JOB OR BETTER THEN HIMSELF. So he try's to distinguish a difference by forcing laws to go through that call a contractor a designer and a college engineer an engineer. A non technical layman will always pay more for a Engineer then a Designer. Hence we have our system of class's. In hydronics I find that the person educated through Dan's wall and the RPA can design the best hydronic heating systems. Sometimes that person is a Engineer like Tom Meyer or he is a journeyman trades person like Mark Eatherton. Both are very smart in hydronics. But Tom is considered to install a engineered system and Mark is considered to install a designed system. People from Saudi Arabia fly Tom in to engineer systems for them. But do they even know who Mark Eatherton is? Would they pay to fly Mark in?

I want to break down this barrier. I want to start a hydronics trades organization for engineers and designers alike. I want to create a tough hydronics test that requires taking Hydronics Seminars by Dan Holohan, the RPA or any other hydronic teachers. I want to award the person who pass's the test a Hydronics Engineering Certificate and make them a Hydronics Engineer who does hydronic engineered drawings. I want to do for the technical end of our great trade the same thing as Frank Blau did on the business end. I WANT TO TRANSFORM A HYDRONICS CONTRACTOR INTO A HYDRONICS ENGINEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is all after I develop the Heating Efficiency Formula (HEF) into software and make a fool of those that created the abortion that I call AFUE. And save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills while doing so. I was thinking that maybe Hydronic Engineers could use HEF software to engineer (design) more efficient heating systems.

What do you think?

John Ruhnke






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Michal

Very True

John

You said it 100% perfect. I went to A local Community College, got a Associates in Engineering, never persued it cause my father passed away and I had to take care of other Priorities. But went back and got my Masters and undergrad in Organizational Leadership. Both Upper level management degrees. When interviewing at the current company I am at (a engineering consulting firm), I was asked 3 times is this what I want to do. Since I had 2 different degrees and they were not sure what I was doing. Here I am a mechanical designer heavy in plumbing design. but because the lack of a Bachelors Degree, I am limited in what they will allow me to do. Even though I have alot of field skills.

Well Its 4 years I am here now, and going to leave next week to go into civil service as a assistant engineer for a local municipality.

very interesting. The current job was focused on my schooling, while the new job was more focused on my hands on ability and some schooling.

I feel schooling is and should be referred to as a foundation, but trade experience, other courses, certifications and such should count as a valuable credential I agree.

John, As far as Being called a Engineer or a designer, or a technician, Please understand onre thing that I Learned in My masters Courses, Actually 2.

1.) Think outside the box, as you are doing by wanting to start a common certification or review course.

2.) A title is only that, A title

Why you cant be called a engineer I think is strictly a definition of the Law. Might have to change HYDRONIC ENGINEER to CERTIFIED HYDRONIC DESIGNER or CERTIFIED HYDRONIC PROFESSIONAL due to legality issues.

John, I would Like to offer any help I can in helping you, or being a a part of your team to move this idea forward. I would Like a chance to put the business skills I have learned and other skills together with yours and other members here and see what we can do

SPB

More Designing.

Like most people out there reading this web site are designing their own systems. I have been making a good living out of repearing these systems. The solutions are hard to find sometimes. Most are from poor instalation. (NO air elimination or to much, vents in the wrong locations. Many installers don't use manifolds that can be bleed and balanced. Too cool of water in a cast iron boiler etc.) Then I come up on systems that look like NASA had been there. They work well,.... untill one of the mixing valves, injection pumps, injection valves fails then the whole system is down.
This is a statement as well as a request. I attended IBR 25 years ago, I attended a seminar BY Viessman several years ago. I have been doing hydronics for 30 years and have seen many systems. Some I copy aspects of the design others I try to forget. (The beauty and the beast of US designing our systems.) I see very few engineered systems that work any better and often worse. Much of the problem comes from over building the system. To many whisles and bells. I work on 100 year old systems that still work as well. They are all coal to natural gas conversions. The cumbustion efficiency is way up their, (obviously not the heat exchange)but the utilities don't warrant a change in boilers. Some are steam, some hot water and have been converted to pumps.
To get to the point I have been trying to find some liturature or schematics of the European methods as described by Dan lately. The people from Viessman also though Americans were crazy in their lust for more pumps and controls. The liked a manual 4way valve for the primary secondary piping didn't have to be motorized, but could be. They felt the benifit was small. They didn't have time to pursue their thoughts further.
I would like information on constant pumping and piping as in Germany, and Europe. Any ideas on the subject.
Thanks SPB

John Ruhnke

Words are important to the Layman...............

Michal,

A designer means something different from Engineer to the Layman. The problem I received from the State of Connecticut was in misrepresentation. They said that if I called myself an Engineer I was misrepresenting myself. So if we create a engineering certificate we are not misrepresenting ourselves. The dictionary describes an engineer and not once in the dictionary does it make college as a requirement. A mechanical contractor fits the description very well and should rightfully be called an engineer.

We need more smart people in the trades. We have to compete with college. Words and titles are important. Look at the great installations done by wallies. Unfortunately the majority of installations are done by people who don't care. Radiant and steam systems are neglected because there aren't enough technically smart or ambitious people in the trades. It takes a lot of brains to install a mechanical heating system today. It takes more brains then a lot of other college educated jobs out there.

John Ruhnke

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Carl PE

Umm..

Didn't we go through this once before?

It has nothing to do with going to college. You have to take the state exam.. then you can go around calling yourself an engineer all you want.

You do not have to go to college to take the exam.

Call up your state licensing board and sign up for the next test. It's real easy.

John Ruhnke

Try some RPA design class's.............

SPB,

Take a radiant basics and then radiant precision class. The systems that look like NASA will make more sense and so will the European systems.

JR



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Michal

from that aspect

I see where your coming from. I am attending dans Seminar in queens and truly look forward to attending it. I feel seminars like taht are priceless. Well if we are competing against colleges lets take it one step further and maybe consider setting up like a devoted school to offer a degree granting program that combines real world skills, technical skills, engineering fundamentals and some business skills. I am sure it would be a one of a kind institution and would surely compete with the local colleges,

just one thing, locate it near the NY/ct border, since there are not too many engineering/technical schools in the area, LOL

John Ruhnke

Years down the road..........

I just wanted to make a note that this is just in the idea stage and could take years before I find the time or money to act on this idea. I will most likely spend a few years brain storming and hashing ideas out. Also it depends on interest from other wetheads. No interest and I will just let it fade away.

JR

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Carl PE

Actually,

I like this idea, but I think you're going to have some problems. To do what you're talking about, your school is going to have to be accredited by ABET.. I don't think that's going to be too easy.

Perhaps you should talk to the dean of m.e. at your local college and see if they're interested in having you teach your classes there.

Michal

well count me in

for the future too. but I think we can get active by going to our local trade high schools and maybe teach a certain agenda from time to time, think that might be a good start

John Ruhnke

Sounds good..........

Michal,

Yes and an apprenticeship in the plumbing, heating, AC or electrical would count towards qualification. For the Pro Engineers, college could count equal with the apprenticeship. Field time as a journeyman or Engineer in Training over and above college or the apprenticeship would be required too. I don't think we need a physical school. You would just need to attend some of the many seminars already available to our trade today. Pictures, mechanical and electrical drawings of a completed project could be required too.

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Carl PE

Ok..

Here's what you're up against:

Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) Examination

Effective October 2005

MORNING SESSION (120 questions in 12 topic areas)

• I. Mathematics 15%
  
• II. Engineering Probability and Statistics 7%
  
• III. Chemistry 9%
  
• IV. Computers 7%
  
• V. Ethics and Business Practices 7%
  
• VI. Engineering Economics 8%
  
• VII. Engineering Mechanics (Statics and Dynamics) 10%
  
• VIII. Strength of Materials 7%
  
• IX. Material Properties 7%
  
• X. Fluid Mechanics 7%
  
• XI. Electricity and Magnetism 9%
  
• XII. Thermodynamics 7%
  

AFTERNOON SESSION (60 questions in 8 topic areas)

• I. Mechanical Design and Analysis 15%
  
• II. Kinematics, Dynamics, and Vibrations 15%
  
• III. Materials and Processing 10%
  
• IV. Measurements, Instrumentation, and Controls 10%
  
• V. Thermodynamics and Energy Conversion Processes 15%
  
• VI. Fluid Mechanics and Fluid Machinery 15%
  
• VII. Heat Transfer 10%
  
• VIII. Refrigeration and HVAC 10%
  

DanHolohan

The late, great John Rogers,

who worked for Wallace Eannace Associates, my old employer was a legend in New Jersey. He was one of the best hydronics men I've ever met, and he taught me so much.

Just before he retired, John Rogers took the New Jersey P.E. test, just on a lark. He passed it the first time out.

High school education. Years of practical experience.

John Ruhnke

Wow!!

Dan,

Thats incredible! He must have been very smart. You are lucky to have worked under him.

JR

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Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Ok

I'm going to start calling myself a plumber because I know closed conduit and open channel hydraulics and can fit pipe.

My college education ought to get me that.

It works both ways ;-)

I'm kidding of course, but it's the same thing. Respect what engineers have gone through to obtain that title. And with that title comes a lot of responsibility and obligations. Things are set up the way they are for good reasons. To protect public safety, and to provide a place for the buck to stop. "Professional Engineer" isn't just a title.

-Andrew

DanHolohan

He knew

a lot, and was self-taught. I miss him.

John Ruhnke

I do respect engineers...........

Andrew,

I do respect engineers. Do you respect us? Hydronics is a specialty. To protect the public safety you need someone who understands the system design best. Sometimes its an Engineer, sometimes not. Mike Miller wrote most of the technical drawings for Tekmar Controls. Mike is top notch. Is Mike an Engineer? He isn't a P.E. But is he an Engineer? John Sigenthaler is a great hydronic designer who also happens to be a P.E. You see where I am getting at. Your college education is just that, an education. If someone received a alternitive education by way of networking, books and seminars and can do a very good job designing heating systems then he to should be called an Engineer because he is one. Lets not try to bury the truth here. It is the capability that makes you an Engineer not the diploma. Not all P.E.'s know enough to make it as a hydronics engineer (Designer). But they may be a great Engineer at Hot Air Systems or determining structual loads for buildings. I know plumbers that can design a plumbing system from scratch for a whole building. They are Engineers too. In order to be a good journeyman in any installation company you must be able to design and install a system from scratch. All journeymen are really Engineers. Look it up in the dictionary. Research it in your history books and you will see I am right.

JR

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Andrew Hagen (ALH)

School

To be a Professional Engineer means the buck stops with you. When something goes wrong during or after a project, who do the lawyers look at first? Who does the Contractor point to first?

I do not disagree that what Hydronics Designers do is engineering. I do disagree with calling them Engineers.

Real world experience is very valuable. I've spent some time in crawlspaces. I've spent some time in Calculus classes. Hydraulics isn't as easy as the simplified formulas make it seem...neither are thermodynamics or heat transfer.

-Andrew

John Ruhnke

Lawyers??? What do they know about Hydronics?

If something goes wrong, us Contractors get called in to fix the mess not the Engineer. Lawyers? Why would you call a Lawyer? They can't fix anything.

Why are you scared to call us Engineers? Why? Do you fear us so?

John Ruhnke

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Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Nope

Why do you envy us so?

Be proud of your profession. I am an Engineering Intern. I have years of supervised work ahead of me in order to call myself a Professional Engineer. I've worked hard (in class and in mechanical rooms) to be what I am. If you would like to do the same, you may.

National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying


-Andrew

Sweet_3

When the job goes wrong!!

You can be guaranteed that the guy who failed to torque the bolt to the designed spec will be the scape goat, not the the engineer, you gotta be kidding.

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

I'm talking about

if the spec is wrong.

If the spec is wrong they won't go after the contractor. They go after the engineer.

-Andrew

Sweet_3

Thats my point

designing it on a computer and putting it together are two different animals, when the lawyers get invovlved and big buck's are involved it's the lowly tradesmen and his oversight's who will take the fall, imho.

John Ruhnke

I don't envy you.............

ALH,

I don't envy you. I am proud of who I am and what I have become. I just don't like to be concidered a second class citezen. I will go on calling myself a designer on all of my business cards and to my clients. The last three times that I have come up against a job done by an Engineer or P.E., I have proven myself capable and sold my design as a design build firm over that of the Engineer. I do this by pointing out the serious flaws in the Engineers design. If a local Engineer would show me a proper hydronic design then I would bid on it and install it and shut up. That has not happened yet. I don't know why. I guess they are inexperienced in hydronics. This is a serious problem in my area. That is why I am here trying to elevate the Hydronic Specialist to that of Engineer.

John Ruhnke

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Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Capability

John,

You may very well be much more capable in designing a hydronic heating system than most engineers out there. Real world experience is a powerful teacher, perhaps better than classrooms. However, all that classroom work is not as worthless as you make it sound. Hydraulics was my emphasis in school. I learned things there that I would have never known from real life experience. You can debate whether it's important knowledge, but accreditation requires certain things. I do not consider you a second class citizen for not having an engineering degree. You have a large body of knowledge that comes from your experiences, classroom work during your apprenticeship, and any additiional certification classes you have taken. It's a different body of knowledge than an engineer who is worth his/her degee has. It's not lesser. It's just different. We're all working together to create a perfectly functioning finished product. Maybe the engineers you've been coming across haven't felt the same way and have been unwilling to learn anything from you. That's the break between working with the components and designing for the components. It's counter productive. I'm sure I could learn a lot from you, and there's a chance I might have some bit of knowledge you may find interesting.

-Andrew

Dan Goodridge

Andrew


I just sent you an e-mail with two pictures attached.

You're gonna' LOVE it!

Mark H

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John Ruhnke

I never said it was worthless..........

College is a great place to get a education. I never said it was worthless. I have taken many college cources at 4 different colleges. I have taken many seminars read many technical books and networked with many people. I to have an education. My education is designed specifically for my job.

To me a mechanical or electrical system is one big puzzle. I really enjoy solving the puzzle. I always have. I like to work up close. I was born to build. God gave me the talents and meant for me to have a tool in my hands. God never meant for me to stay in a office all week. I want to know how everything works.

An Engineer is my equal he is not below me or above me. It works best when we design a system together not when he designs and I put in the parts to his way. When I design a system I have a support staff of specialists in certain areas that I call on for advice. JIm Davis is where I go to for combustion questions. Mike Miller is my favorite person for control strategy. I call Wirsbo up for tube layout questions. Prisco Panza and Kieth of Shelton Winnelson help me pick out components and answer many other questions. I don't think any of these guys are Engineers. I seek out the smartest in certain areas to advise me. I do use John Sigenthalers software and have called him for advice on a few item, specially mini tube, balence valve and CV questions. Dave Sweet from Taco has taught me a few things. Dan Holohan on old Steam systems.

All of these guys have knowledge in certain areas. Most of the important stuff came from years of learning on the job.

JR

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Mark Eatherton1

What's in a title...

John, I don't have any hang ups with titles. They're meaningless to me and my clients. Most of my clients don't really care what letters follow my last name. Additionally, for what it's worth (pun intended) it's a matter of public record that I'm one of the most expensive expert witnesses to testify during the Goodyear trials. I don't need a title to charge more for my services, just the experience to back it up.

Chin up my friend. I know you for what you are, what you know and what you do, and a title of engineer would have ZERO impact on my feelings towards you.

ME

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Joe_56

ABET accreditation

You have a good idea in trying to get some recognition for your knowledge and experience. I think that part of the problem with calling yourself an engineer is that society relates the title of engineer (when in reference to design) of being an educated professional. Please don't get me wrong. I am by no means inferring that a tradesman is neither educated nor professional. What I mean is that an engineer can PROVE TO SOCIETY that they have the education, required by society, to represent themselves in such a manner that they will be trusted take the public's wellbeing into their own hands. A diploma from an ABET accredited university or program is proof of the education that society deems appropriate.

This title is then further regulated, where public health is a concern, by requiring a professional license, regulated by the state, to represent yourself to the public as an engineer. The requirements for this are approved education and experience, or an amount of documented experience which society deems acceptable. These, in conjunction with a test to prove your competency, are what's needed to be recognized as an engineer.

In order to receive a hydronic engineer certificate, this must be an ABET approved program. Because society has deemed ABET accreditation necessary to properly call yourself and engineer, I suggest visiting the ABET website to find out how to have your program meet the quality standards required.

Until then, unfortunately, a designer is a designer. In our industry, the title of engineer is reserved for those who have jumped through the hoops that the general public has set in place to try an protect itself. I know a lot of guys out there who know a heck of a lot more hydronic heating systems than hydronic heating engineers do. But, at the same time, that hydronic engineer (with an engineering degree) understands the chemical structure of the materials used, and at one point in their education, has designed the motor for the pump, the pump's housing, the impeller, the mold used to make the volute, the heat exchanger in the boiler and probably components of the machines used to make the motor, impeller, volute, heat exchanger, and pipe. It is the expectation of the general public when they here engineer that the person can do this. What the public doesn't understand is that a system is GREATLY different than a component of the system and that knowing how to design one, does not mean that you can design the other.

That is the perception that we need to fight, and the way to do that is through ABET accreditation. We need a program that can be one of the hoops a person must go through for society to recognize a person as a hydronic engineer.

rb_6

Professional Hyronician

I don’t know of any reasonable professional governed by laws that would deny that trades people carry out design which falls within the definition of 'engineering'. I have both a trades and engineering background and understand this completely. The grounding point is not in a dictionary definition but in legislated definitions (laws) which are written to protect the public. Those professionals who practice under the legislated laws are held to higher standards which includes among other requirements, adhereing to a code of ethics, risking loss of license to practice and 'minimum continuing education' to maintain their designation. Does that mean professional trade people operate less than legislated benchmarks? Of course not.

There are many trades people who operate with greater professionalism then many of the professionals governed by the law, I repeat - There are many trades people who operate with greater professionalism then many of the professionals governed by the law.

In Canada we differentiate between Professional Engineers, Engineering Technologists, Engineering Technicians and the Trades. Within the profession of technology, governed by the Canadian Council of Technicians and Technologists [CCTT], (independent of the professional engineering society governed by Canadian Council of Professional Engineers [CCPE]) there are a number of technology tiers.

The highest level is a Certified Engineering Technologist (C.E.T.) or Applied Science Technologist (A.Sc.T.). The exception is offered through the Alberta Society of Engineering Technologist (ASET ) along with The Association of Professional Engineers, Geologists, and Geophysicists of Alberta (APEGGA) where one can with the permission of the Joint Registration Board (ASET/APEGGA) obtain a Registered Engineering Technologist (R.E.T.) designation. At the very least it takes eight years of education and work experience to obtain an R.E.T designation, a thorough back ground check into ones competency verified by numerous professional references verifying engineering skills, letters of recommendations and a three part professional examination which covers engineering law in Alberta, professional and ethical practice, plus the Engineering, Geological and Geophysical Professions Act (EGGP Act) and Regulations, Occupational Health Act and Worker's Compensation Act. Many holding technology designations came from the trades like I did. This might be a good model for your vision.

There is also a Registered Professional Technologist (R.P.T.) Eng. Available through APEGGA which is professional practice limited to ones specialty. I’ll be working towards this additional designation next year. This would allow me to practice under both ASET and APEGGA.

John et al, you won’t find a stronger proponent to your thoughts than I and all I can say is start today. In B.C. the Engineers and Applied Science Technologist vetoed a vote to merge association citing a number of ego related issues around the word professional and ASET and APEGGA have been battling over the use of ‘professional’ since 1985 when new legislation was written to recognize the role of technologists in the engineering team. In fact ASET is in the process of attempting to change its name to The Association of Science and Engineering Technology Professionals of Alberta to facilitate its strategy.

You have my support.

rb

hr

What is an engineered system?

I attended Siggys "Modern Engineering Concepts" seminar in Chicago this week.

The very first page of the course posed the above question.

the answer "A preplanned assembly of components selected and sized to accurately and efficiently supply comfort for a specfic building while respecting the constraints of the client"

Not far from what John stated!

The page goes on to say "Traditionally most "residential" heating systems in North America are not designed by engineers. They are designed by others including


The installing contractor
The wholesaler who sells the materials to the contractor
a manufacture rep who calls on the wholesaler
Technical support at the manufacture

In contrast, when the building is used for commercial, industrial, or institutional purposes it is common to employ an engineering firm to design the HVAC system.

The "line in the sand" between non engineered residential and engineered commercial was probably acceptable when residential systems were relatively simple.

Before modern radiant panel heating systems began appearing in the early 1980's the vast majority of residential hydronic systems were relativly simple."

The handbook goes on to show some very creative "non engineered" systems. Some of which have appeared here on the Wall.

If one were to look deeply into true HVAC comfort including ach, humidity control, system control intergration and psychrometrics, the design gets pretty complicated for an untrained contractor. How many HVAC contractors consult Psychrometric charts when designing a system? Or know when to hu8midify or dehumidify, and how it changes comfort levels.

A world without engineers, or their knowledage base, sounds a little neanderthal-ish to me

I'm glad I have a good group of engineer friends to call on also, John

hot rod

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jerry scharf_3

we've been through this before

John,

A professional engineer is someone who has passed a state exam (and possibly meet other requirements) and is thus allowed to sell design services. I don't have a PE and am thus not allowed to sell my services as a system designer. If you are an installer, you can design what you install.

More practically, there are those who believe that they only want to do business with people who they can sue. When a PE puts a stamp on something, they are then responsible for the design and can be sued as such. The installer is responsible for the implementation of said design, and can be sued for deviating from the design. That's where RFI wars start. The bigger the job and the mosre at risk, the more people look for ways to reduce risk. I personally believe that it's somewhat misguided, as I'd rather not end up in court in the first place.

Now, what I hear from you is Rodney Dangerfield. "I don't get no respect." You have these cool ideas and want people to take you seriously about them. I feel you are assuming that if you were an engineer it would be different. Very few engineers get to design new cool things and some of the best ideas come from those who's training hasn't limited their view of the possible.

Being a thinker and inventor is a hard road any way you cut it. You bring your plusses and minuses to the table just like every other person trying to do these things. Some will be right, others wrong. Some will be successful, but many more won't. Having a degree could hinder you as much as help you.

So my advice, worth all you paid for it, is to forget this. Take the energy that you spend about this and find a way to make that energy positive and supportive of your goals. My sense is that this theme is sapping energy from your life and your work. One of this things that distinguish the successes you pointed to is that they remained positive, believing that their ideas were correct, useful and going to be successful.

jerry