Aunty Frieze question

[Deleted User]

Drew...any one??

I have read over and over telling me not to use automotive antifreeze in Hydronic systems, but not one source has said why. If it is toxicity, there are non-toxic automotive glycols.

They are good for cast iron and aluminum, I don't know about copper. So why not automotive stuff?

Joe Fude
Product Development
Steffes Corporation
jfude@steffes.com
701 456-7454

END OF QUESTION

It has long been my understanding that the reasons for not using automotive had to do with inherent toxicity to all living things, lack of proper inhibition packages for typical closed loop systems and problems associated with disposal of same at the end of its life cycle. Of course, these are OLD school attitudes, and it appears that times they are a changing. Anyone else care to take a shot at this?

TIA, I'm headed out for my property over on the western slope, XanaX Ranch :-)

See you all on Sunday, and TIA for the input.

ME

Unknown

Mark

In addition to the toxicity issue, it is my understanding that boiler antifreeze is formulated as to not alter the specific heat properties of the system fluid very much.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Brad White_9

Mark

My understanding is that yes the toxicity issue (fails the "dog test" for sure) but moreso it is the effect on various metals, especially aluminum and other soft gasketing materials. Also the inhibitors are suited to engine use and have silicates which gum up smaller passages.

Not much to go on but enough to accept the recommendation at face value. As you asked, Drew at Noble would know much more.

Weezbo

observation..

automotive antifreeze has indeed been used and on systems that i have seen, worked. It does not tend to eat up the seals or gaskets on pumps or have glycol leaks on fittings...the cooling passages in heater cores are rather tight in automotive units, so i don't see that as an insurmountable problem. it may have different reaction over time to the telestat valves at least that is something that i have seen that would preclude using it.

the thing is though that there are a whole new line of automotive antifreze products.some are for aluminium heads,some i think are for diesel motors, they are not the old antifreeze with a different cover. i am fairly certain they have been on the market for more than 3 years now and i too wondered what advancements this new glycol might have made.

Dave DeFord_4

Heres a link regarding automotive antifreeze

I can't vouch for the accuracy but is sounds like it is reasonable. The part about the newer (orange) automotive antifreezes eating solder were germain I thought

http://ceg.dyndns.org/pipermail/contour-l/2002-June/065640.html

[Deleted User]

Thanks to everyone for their response....

Still waiting for Drew to check in on the subject. Must be doing something important, like getting ready for winter...


Drew...

Drew...

Hot Rod...

Hot Rod...

(I KNOW where HR's been...)


ME

Drew_2

antifreeze

Been out selling antifreeze in 101 degree weather on the East coast. (Something like Eskimos and refrigerators).

All of the automotive antifreezes I've looked at are still using silicates. Silicate is heated and then cooled, then after a period of time it will settle out of the fluid and when heated again will not dissolve back into the fluid. The reason they use it as part of the inhibitor package is it's less expensive. $0.04 a gallon in cost for every gallon in the automotive industry adds up.
In the newer auto antifreezes (extended and long life) they are using a chemical cocktail as an inhibitor and it usually includes silicates. You'll notice that even propylene glycol based automotive antifreeze is listed as less toxic vs. non-toxic.
When talking about toxicity, there are three organization to be aware of; FDA (Food and Drug Administration), EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) and OSHA (Occupational Safety & Health Administration).
FDA is the one we are most concerned with. Are the ingredients in the antifreeze recognized as a food product?

EPA is concerned in the disposal or spilling of the product.

OSHA is worried about the exposure to workers.

Some will list a product as non-toxic without an explanation of which regulatory agency considers it none toxic.

Probably more than you wanted to know.

[Deleted User]

Thank you sir....

Keep your eye out in the Contractors Magazine L.T.T.E. section for credit where credit is due.

And thank you for the insightful answer!

ME

hr

Oral toxicity

Dow claims they list to FDA 182 and 184 and are approved for use in daries. Both the propylene glycol and the dipotassium phosphate are listed 21 CFR 184.1666 and 182.6285.

I know a automotive nglycol packager in Texas and he claims they are replacing the msilicates, but woyldn't tell me witrh what.

Yes their are some PG automotive fluids, but PG is not as good as a transfer fluid as EG.

hot rod

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Brad White_106

Rated PG

You will find polyethylene glycol in such sundry producs as mouthwash and low-carb energy bars... The term the FDA uses is "Low Oral Toxicity", which is not applicable to most politicians in these parts.

hr

Food grade glycols

are used in tons of food products as a flovor and scent enhancer. Hard to believe it starts from a barrel of crude. A local supplier sells about 6000 gallons a month to Kraft Foods here.

My glycol connections tell me a lot of the raw material glycols come from off shore these days. Wonder about the quality of that stuff

hot rod

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Doug_7

Polyethylene glycol is not Ethylene glycol

Don't confuse polyethylene glycol with ethylene glycol - similar names - but they are entirely different chemicals.

Ethylene glycol (EG) is your familiar automobile antifreeze - or coolant as they like to call it nowdays and it is toxic by ingestion. Also used as a deicing fluid.

Polyethylene glycol (PEG) is non-toxic and is used in a variety of products including laxatives, skin creams and medications. It is also used to produce polyurethane foam for furniture etc. It is not an antifreeze.

Propylene glycol (PG) is a food grade non-toxic antifreeze product that has many of the properties of ethylene glycol but it is not toxic - so it is the preferred antifreeze for hydronic systems. It is used as a moisturizer in medicines, cosmetics, food, and tobacco products.

Doug