Job pics - new boiler for 1920s two pipe steam

Garret_4

Thanks for the clarification... I'll ask the guys about that. Any idea with this boiler (Peerless) if the drain valve can be upgraded easily now? I'd hope you could just drain the boiler and spin off the valve... no major dissassembly?

Thought I posted about the water hookup already... guess not.

As the old boiler was, it's manual feed, with no backflow preventer. We debated whether to install an autofeeder, maybe something with a meter on it so I could keep an eye on how much water we were adding. Made sense not to do it since I'll be blowing down the boiler every week anyway. If it becomes a problem in the future, I'm sure we can switch to a vtx autofeeder or something similar.

Garret_4

Some of you might remember my threads a few months back... I'm a homeowner with a 1920s two-pipe vapor (steam) system.

The job's done... With all the good advice from this site and from Dan's books, I found some local guys who know steam, and I'm very happy with how things turned out.

Here are some job pics... If you see anything that could be improved, just let me (us) know. The gentlemen that installed the boiler carry Lost Art of Steam with them, but aren't Wall regulars... I'll forward any kudos or constructive criticism on to them.

Some quick notes:

- all the near boiler piping is new, cut and threaded on site. They found my main wet return had about a pencil's diameter clear, then rest of the 2" pipe was jammed up.

- they did a traditional header rather than a dropped header because it's what they're used to and it seemed to fit my piping very well.

- they installed a 1 psi vaporstat, with the pressuretrol as a safety pressure cap at 5psi. I haven't set the vaporstat yet.. I have to work through the calcs in the Lost Art to see how low I should try to go.

- for extra protection, they installed a float cutoff as well as the probe cutoff that came with the boiler.

- I threw in a picture of the old beast to show what they had to work with.

- the pipes will be reinsulated at some point before fall/winter.

Sure ran great the other night... course it was 90 degrees outside when were testing.. nothing like getting your rads hot while you have the a/c cranked.

Look good?

Steamhead (in transit)

Looks good to me

nice, neat job. You know you have a Steam Man when he installs extra-high boiler risers, uses an eccentric reducer, and insists on cranking up the boiler in 98-degree weather! We've had to do this last item a few times during the heat wave- nothing like sweating for your money, eh?

Refresh my memory, how are your mains vented? I seem to remember the dry return vent was around the corner from the boiler....

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Garret_4

Gorton #2's everywhere.... two on the 2 1/2" main, one on the 2" main, and one on the dry return.

In the old piping arrangement, there was a vent on one of the mains, directly above the boiler... none of us could come with a good reason to put one there, so they got rid of it when they repiped the header.

I was wondering about that reducer. I didn't know enough to question him on it, but I did indeed find two good steam men. They work for the local university doing commercial steam setups, and do some freelance residential work on the side.

Yay, glad to hear you approve.

Christian Egli_2

Thanks for the picture show

It's nice to be able to breathe with such hot weather, it's good to read your system works great.

Did you think of giving a good look to your traps, possibly changing all of them (if applicable). Does your exhaust hole on the return breathe nothing but air?

Enjoy what's left of the summer.

Steamhead (in transit)

No wonder it ran great!

let us know how much less fuel you use this coming winter. If you can compare therms of gas used to degree-days elapsed in a given period of time, the results will be more meaningful.

If you haven't worked with degree-days before, you can get them for the current year and well into the past. Download them here:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/cdus/degree_days/

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Fred Campbell

Residential Steamer

Garrett, I'm sure it gives more than a few of us goosebumps to know there are homeowners like you who understand the care and engineering that went into designing your home's heating plant way back when your house was built. Back then a two pipe system was a considerable cost upgrade from a one pipe. There have been considerable postings recently about steam vs hot water conversions and related efficiency. Personally, I'm not sure if I would design a steam system new unless I planned to be off the grid. But it pleases me to no end knowing that a homeowner who has a work of art installed in his purchased home has decided to restore that work of art to it's original glory.

We could go on and on about return on investment. Rebuilding a top of the line (for it's day) system will always be less expensive than converting. You've got the bug now. Do us all a favor and document your energy savings and comfort. I'm sure you'll 'tweak' the system as the winter closes upon us. Keep us posted. It's homeowners like you that inspire us "Deadmen" lovers.


TG

Robert O'Connor_12

Good job

I too like the eccentric reducer (not sure it really does anything in this application). You can tell this was installed by someone with experience.

One small detail I would have done would have been to install a full port ball valve in lieu of that boiler drain.

Where is the domestic water connection hook up? I can't seem to see it in the pic's. Also, where is the service switch?

Why did they increase the flue size?


I think if you maintain this, it should last you 40+ years.

Good job!


Robert O'connor/NJ

Garret_4

Yes, I definitely will. I have data going back five years for our old gas usage, including the year we brought home a newborn baby in september and kept the heat a bit higher than usual all winter. See here's the rub, we have another on the way in 4 weeks. So I should have a good apples to apples comparison.

I'm hoping for 40-50%... we'll see!

Garret_4

Is the boiler drain the red handled valve in image #500?

What's the advantage of a full port ball valve over what's there now?

The service switch is to shut off the electric supply, right? It's mounted above the boiler on the basement ceiling (attached to a floor joists)-- that's where it was originally.

Thanks for the kind words, Robert.

Garret_4

Yes, I have rebuilt a few of my traps with B&J cage units... Right now I just did the ones that I think are faulty, but I'll probably replace/rebuild em all soon just to be sure.

Exhaust hole on the return? I'm not following that question.... is that a way I could see if any of my traps are faulty?

Garret_4

Thanks Tom... I'm probably not like most homeowners... I'm a bit of a perfectionist and have an engineering background. So I can't help getting into the details of a project like this... it's been fun, and indeed I've been bitten by the bug. I'm going to put a flyer up at the local building materials/preservation yard to tell people I'll look over their residential steam systems in exchange for a cup of good coffee. Gotta share the knowledge any way we can.

Return on investment, who knows... with gas prices going up 25% a year, it could be quicker than I think. The old boiler made it through the heating system with nary a complaint, but as we found as it was cut up, that was a bit of a miracle. About half the sections were plugged up, the returns were a mess, etc... so it was going to go some day anyway.

I'd like to give a couple quick shoutouts...

Dave Bunnell (boilerpro) gave me a ton of advice about my project, for free.... he's in Illinois but wasn't able to bid on the project because of travel and asbestos abatement costs.

And my boiler guys are Mike Glynn and Neil Silver... I doubt they'll see this, but I wanted you guys to know their names and know they're good with steam, in Champaign Illinois.

Best,
-Garret

Robert O'Connor_12

Garret

By using a full port ball valve in place of whats there, you are providing a drain at the lowest point of the pressure vessel that would now allow for a full sweeping action that helps facilitate the flow of drainage, and would more effectivly rid the boiler of scale, rust, mud and conditioner precipitate. Retaining the existing valve impedes this sweeping ability, thus leaving more "stuff" in the bottom of the boiler and may also clog. If the existing valve clogs, you must dissasemble it, whereas the ball valve, all you have to do is run the gauge glass guard through it and your running clear.

Its also required by the mechanical code.


Where is the water connected with the backflow preventer?


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Robert O'Connor_12

Garret

Easy fix. Drain, screw off, screw on, re-fill.


When you say "its manual feed". what does this mean? Are you filling it from drain valve, to drain valve from the water heater?

Please explain.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

garret_6

Great to hear it's an easy fix to swap out that valve.

There's a manual valve I can open to add more cold water to the boiler. The piping arrangement sends the water into the wet return... lemme see if it's in one of the pics I posted.

Okay, yah, image 494 shows the feed water supply piping. Right in the middle of that photo, there are three vertical pipes. The left one is the equalizer, the right one is part of the hartford loop... the narrower pipe in the middle (1" or so) is the cold water feed coming down from above. The valve is out of frame, above the boiler.

http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?20060731_494.jpg&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=22858

Christian Egli_2

Air Eliminator double crossed by an air vent

You kind of answered that question. The initial air stuck in the radiators leaves through the radiator traps as soon as it is pushed away by the incoming steam. The radiator trap lets the condensate go by and lets the air go by, but it shuts on steam. In a healthy system, except for valuable steam everything gets flushed down your dry returns and flows back to the boiler. There, the water takes a dive back into the boiler and the air finds its way out the vent hole. This is the hole I was taking about. I read you've got it fitted with a Gorton vent.

Without that dry return air vent installed, this is what you'll see:

On system startup, you should be able to feel a slight blowing out of this hole. When the system is running right, boringly, you shouldn't get anything coming out of it. That's when everything is healthy, but if and when the boiler is ever running at an excessive pressure, your basement becomes the site of the next national park, fitted with it's very own old faithful geyser. And the last case, the worse of all, when any single radiator trap has failed, you'll be leaking steam into the return pipes and this steam will be walking away from your grasp through that open hole. Whenever this happens in any amount larger than normal whiffs, it is the call for prompt radiator trap repair. It's always easy and always rewarding.

Live steam has no business getting into the returns but it happens soon enough when a radiator trap goes bad. This is a prime cause for heating imbalance and water hammer. The usual stop gap idea to this problem is to plug the dry return vent hole with, at worse, a solid plug and, at best, with an air vent.

The air vent stops the loss of steam, but by shutting on it,your dry return is led to pressurization and another whole slew of problems, one of which is the successive destruction of all your radiator traps caused by the collapsing of this restrained steam.

I don't know what you had earlier in your system, such two pipes set ups often had the air eliminator, which is nothing but an open hole that shuts on rising water (to prevent the geyser operation), the air eliminator does not stop steam - so you can always tell when any of your radiator trap has gone faulty.

Your system with the vaporstat has little chance of ever seeing this geyser problem. The only reason you'd get there, is if your water feeder went bad and couldn't stop itself from overfeeding the boiler. In such case, witnessing the gushing water would be very helpful. In fact, this flood, if not allowed to spill over through this open vent hole, would go on to fill your entire home radiators with water and pressurize them up to city bursting power (assuming your pressure reducer also went faulty). Steam systems are meant to hold pressure, but your valve stems would likely drip water on your carpets.

It is nice to have the open vent hole as a control to what can be going wrong, you also have the opportunity to pipe it anywhere safe where it can barf into a drain.

The air vent you now have on this dry return vent hole, will give you protection from a geyser, like the air eliminator did. But also, in case a radiator trap goes bad, it will double trap the steam in the returns, hiding the defect from you until a simple problem turns into a bigger one. But you can tell when the air vent is shutting on steam it will be steam hot which, under healthy operation, it shouldn't be. Or, you'll be noticing uneven heat and problematic condensate drain back to the boiler.

I prefer dry returns opening into the atmosphere where they can also innocently spill water into a drain. This is the classic way of piping condensate pumps and their accumulating tank when needed on two pipe system such as yours - unrestrained and wide open to the sky.

Garret_4

Wow, thanks for a very informative post.

Makes sense to me that I don't want to hide a trap problem by holding steam in the return piping.

The system originally had an "arco hurrivent" on the dry return. I replaced it with the gorton #2 at steamhead's suggestion. I think there was some discussion here with others suggesting an open pipe.

Lemme chew on your post for a while and figure out if I'd like to change anything. So for your preference, an open pipe is best, an air eliminator is next best (I assume they still make these), and an air vent is least preferred?

Cheers,
-Garret

Christian Egli_2

Yes, air eliminators stil exit

They are the same devices used in hot water applications for air bubble removal. Of course for a whole house steam system air removal, we're not talking about the Maid-o-Mist thimble sized devices, but rather, the big grapefruit sized hunks of iron.

You really don't need a float air eliminator, the likelyhood your system would ever built so much pressure to overwhelm the B dimension, is non existent with modern vaporstats. (this wasn't true at all in the age of happy go lucky coal fires)

The B dimension is the only limitation to worry about when leaving the air hole open, sometimes requiring the need to extend the pipe in height like a funnel on a ship.

For added curiosity, strap a thermometer on your return line and watch whatever it does. It may or may not tell you anything, but it'll look like you're on top of things.

garret_7

Bump back up

Two questions:

1) I checked with my contractor, and he took a look at the drain valve. He thinks it's a speciality valve the manufacturer (Peerless) uses, that functions just like a standard full port ball valve... (i.e., the opening is at the very bottom of the boiler, so no sediment can get stuck in the drain pan.)

Can anyone else confirm this? The boiler is a Peerless 61 series. Maybe I should just call Peerless.. but I'm thinking they'll just say it's fine as is, since it's what they provide.

2) Would you guys recommend I start using Rhomar boiler pro 903 to treat the boiler water?

http://www.rhomarwater.com/pdfs/BoilerPro903.pdf

I see a lot of info on this site about treating hot water systems, but not a lot of info on steam systems.


Thanks!
-Garret

Robert O'Connor_12

garret

It depends...

Which state are you in?

Which mechanical code has the state adopted?

If your state adopted the 2003 International Mechanical Code, then its required.

Easy fix.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

garret_7

Hmm.. I'm in Champaign, Illinois. Our local city seems to have adopted only the 2000 code.

http://www.ci.champaign.il.us/business/bdbd.php

Not sure about the state govt.

Robert O'Connor_12

garret

I googled your state (I think the state government is making it difficult to find out anything on-line by the way), anyway, I found a link for Moline Illinois, and it would appear they adopted the 2003 IMC

http://www.moline.il.us/departments/legal/citycodes.asp

(if they adopted it, its a pretty safe bet they got it from the state government), that said, you are looking for the 2003 Internatinal Mechanical Code section 1008 STEAM BLOWOFF VALVE.

1008.1

Every steam boiler shall be equipped with a quick-opening blowoff valve. The valve shall be installed in the opening provided on the boiler. The minimum size of the valve shall be the size specified by the boiler manufacturer or the size of the boiler blowoff valve opening.


What does that mean you say??

It means that steam boilers collect sediment from the water, system piping and equipment. If allowed to build up, this sediment causes boiler overheating, control fouling, loss of efficiency and premature boiler failure.
The sediment consists of minerals from makeup water, piping scale, chemical cleaner and conditioner precipitate, rust and similar materials. Blowoff valves are required to allow the periodic elimination or purging of harmful sediment. The quick-opening feature permits an almost instantaneous full opening of the valve to induce a sudden sweeping flow in the lowest part of the boiler where sediment collects. The fast opening and closing feature also prevents the waste of steam and heated water, which would occur with a slow-acting shut-off or gate valve. The operation must be fast enough to prevent significant reduction of the water level and to allow sediment to be flushed out before steam is relieved through the blowoff valve. The blowoff valve is sized to comply with the manufacturer's recommendations or, in the absence of a recommendation, must not be less than the size of the blowoff valve opening on the boiler. Undersized valves do not allow the necessary flow volume and velocity to entrain and discharge the sediment. I'm pretty certain this is all the information anyone will EVER need to know about boiler drains but, the question I always seem to ask is "why" does the manufacturer install the old syle boiler drain when mostly every state requires this in one form (or Code) or another.

Good Luck!


Robert O'Connor/NJ