Steam or Hot Water .. how to tell ?????

Fred Campbell

You should publish a book with the queries and your responses. The rabbit thing nearly made me fall off my chair. You have provided a wit that, in my opinion, is unprecedented here on The Wall. Add to that the obvious knowledge you have of all systems large and small, along with your willingness to chime in,...well, The Wall is a MUCH better place (not that it needed improvement) with your input. Hat's off to you my man, you've enhanced my opinion of ME's.
TG

Bill K

Steam or Hot Water .. how to tell ?????

Friends,

My sister just purchased a house near Baltimore that has an ancient oil fired ( converted from coal ) heating system. She is going to replace the boiler and has had a couple of guys out for estimates. One guy said it was steam, one said hot water, and one did not know I was up for the first time today and took a look at the system. It has radiators but no circulating pump or expansion tank. The boiler has a plate on the front that reads water pressure 15 lb, steam 45 lb. I didn't think to get a pic of it, I had my camera with me.

My question is how to tell which system she has, and if it really matters if it's getting replaced anyway ? Will the radiators work with either hot water or steam or are they different for each system ?

Thanks,

Bill Koustenis

Advanced Automotive Machine

Waldorf Md

Brad White_2

Sort of like determining the sex of young rabbits....

It takes a trained eye, experience- and one better be damned correct before proceeding....



When one contractor says "steam" and the other side says, "hot water", I smell trouble. The third opinion, "I do not know", did not help either.

It may well be hot water -specifically gravity hot water- and have the expansion tank in the attic hence not visible to the naked eye...

If the radiators have one pipe connection and a vent about halfway up the opposite side, it is one-pipe steam.

If the radiators have two pipe connections, one smaller than the other, it may be two pipe steam.

If the pipes are equal in size, more likely it is hot water and gravity hot water as that. (Noted lack of circulator being a give-away).

Photos help. But here is better advice:

The house is near Baltimore. Steamhead is in Baltimore. Ergo....

Bill K

Thanks Brad,
No attic, everything is in the basement. I will get some photos and more details in the next week or so. No expansion tank for sure. Did not look closely at the radiators.

Thanks,

Bill Koustenis

Brad White_2

Looks more and more like steam if that is the case, Bill

As to your question can radiators work with either steam or hot water- the answer is: It depends.

If the radiators are the type whose sections are connected top and bottom, they will serve either medium. If connected only across the bottom they are steam-only.

If they are dual-medium, keep in mind that if steam now and used for hot water, the capacity drops off by one third (240 BTUH per SF of radiator surface with steam, 150 with hot water at 170 degrees average temperature (180 in/160 out for example).

The good news is, if the house has been insulated and improved, this in very general terms can compensate nicely for this loss.

Steamhead (in transit)

Bill, we'd love to help your sister out

Please have her call us at 410-321-8116. If we're out of the office and she gets voice mail, we'll get back to her ASAP.

Note that some hot-water systems did not have expansion tanks, relying instead on the dual feed/relief valve to keep the pressure under control. This was not a good idea since valves are moving parts, and can get stuck. It is imperative to equip such systems with properly-sized expansion tanks, but that's usually easy to do. Read my article "Some Thoughts on a Snowy Morning" in Hot Tech Topics- it describes one of these systems and how I handled it.

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Brad White_2

Wow, Tom....

I am humbled and flattered by your kind words! Truly and on a number of planes. I try to have fun here, pass on what I can, learn constantly and the best part, sometimes learn that what I thought I knew may not be so....

Thank you so much! Your words made my day well in advance...

Brad

p.s. The rabbit analogy has basis in fact: I used to breed Dutch rabbits. After segregating them (finally), I came home to the neighborhood children, ages 2 to 8, sitting in a circle, with ALL of my rabbits in the middle. Doing nature's long-term plan shall we say.

"Gee, Mr. White. Hope you did not mind... we came over to play with the bunnies...." Arrrrrggggggggh!

Fred Campbell

Not Being Facetious

Brad, I meant every word. I've been in the trades for 30yrs and have learned more here in the last few years than the rest on the job. I'm a wrench turner, tin banger, mechanic and a guy who puts his best foot forward on every job. I can tell a man who knows his **** and you're him. I loved Dan's story of the old timer who sat on a bucket for an hour or so at the jobsite for a whole house heat piping job and stood up and knew every pipe size, penetration, fitting, and problem he was going to run into. "Order the parts and let's roll tomorrow!" That's me. Kinda seat of the pants but that's how I've been doing it for years.

I'm doing my first indoor pool dehumidifacation install now. Since I'd never done one, I did my homework, told them what a crappy system they had...100% OS air with reheat and exhaust...and sold them on a DryAire system. About the same time you posted about filters on a similar system. We can tell you've been around the block a few times, Brad. The Wall is a better place for your input.

Oh,...To the original poster...Do your radiators have air vents, bleeders, or nothing? Does the boiler have a sight glass? DUH? I love this place

TG

Steamhead (in transit)

I had an e-mail

from Bill tonight. As soon as his sister calls us, we'll set up a visit and take some pics.

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Bill K

Guys,
Thanks for all the replys. Gave Sister steamheads number, she will call him on Tuesday. Sounds like he is the one to take care of it. I should have gotten more info on the system before posting, but it was sort of an afterthought when I got home. Helped her get some other things squared away in the house though.
Thanks again,
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf MD

Brad White_2

Hooo-Rah!

Steamhead- Ever feel like the one public works contractor actually using his shovel in the trench while eight of his buddies are looking down in the hole, observing and making comments?

Wondered if The Wall was like that for you at times such as this....

p.s.:

Who gets to play the cop on detail with doughnut and coffee?

Fred Campbell

Shovel?

Geez Brad, have you been in Chicago watching the Streets and Sanitation workers again?

Way to take the ball and run with it, Frank. I'm sure you'll do them proud.
TG

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, if you love these old systems

like Gordon and I do, the work is rewarding in itself.

But you knew that......

No coffee in this weather though! Even The Lovely Naoko has had less coffee lately.....

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Steamhead (in transit)

It's hot water

a Lilliputian gravity system with a grossly oversized boiler in a cute little Spanish-style 2-bedroom house. Calced at just under 22 MBH for the whole place! It will be a challenge to match this small heat load, but that's a topic for another thread.

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Brad White_100

So, Steamhead

What is the answer to the question of where the expansion tank is? Did it have that fill/relief device you mentioned?

It seemed so certain to me to be steam without that but as one would figure, an odd thing and you knew about it. Hat's Off to you!

Steamhead (in transit)

Ahhh, I forgot

to put that in. Tank was MIA though we did find a plugged tee where one might have been connected. Yes it had a dual valve- drip line routed to the sewer.

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