oil vs propane

steve novak

My friend needs to replace his 60 year old boiler I will try to get some pictures. My question is if he should stick with oil or go to propane. He want propane because of the price of oil but I think propane is also expensive. The oil heat equipment will cost more but wont it be better in the long run? Also he thinks it was always hot water, but I say steam because the piping is 2" and is also pitched back to the boiler was this ever common with water. Also it is a 2 pipe system with Radiators. The home is 3 stories and located in central NJ, he got a quote of $2.50 per gallon for oil last week.

Frenchie

Oil

The oil tank and lines are already there...... Also if you compare the cost on a per BTU basis oil has historically been much cheaper for the last 20+ years. This year it is the same price per BTU for either one in my area. I bet that situation will not last. Oil will probably still cost less in the long run. Also, if the boiler is in the basement think about how tragic it would be if there was a propane leak.... It is a heavier than air explosive gas..... Stick with the oil IMHO.

Gene_2

Nov

Chances are the home has had improvements done to it over the past 60 years. Maybe new windows or insulation work. The rads are more than likely oversized to begin with. This puts the HO in a great position to use a modulating and condensing boiler utilizing propane. In the shoulder seasons you may only run 100' to 115' water temps. Try that with a standard oil boiler and it will be rotted away in a short time. When you have a oil boiler it has a nozzle in it of a fixed size. Everyday it runs as if it is the coldest day of the year. What happens every day it is not at design load? All the "extra" heat just goes up the chimney. Does oil contain more btu's per gallon than propane? Yes it does. But what does it matter if you cannot utilize all of that energy, it is just wasted energy and dollars. Does the HO have any other appliances that use propane? The more you use the cheaper it gets.

Happy Heating, Darin

steve novak

All the kitchen appliances are propane and the hotwater heater also. Unfortunatly there is next to no insulation and all the windows are orgional single pane and very large 6 to 7 feet tall 3 feet wide. The home was ordered from Sears and Robuck and arrived as a kit by train it is not the small cape cod or bungalow type, it is three stories two starwells, two kitchens, I would have to ask but its about 2700-3000 sq feet.

Unknown

Oil is cheaper per BTU, but you can rock the efficiency with propane which, in most of the calcs I do, tends to balance it out, unless you can keep an oil boiler in very good condition (i.e. at least twice yearly cleanings and maintenance) and if you use reset controls and such to maximize its running efficiency.

But vs. your "typical" oil boiler install which is almost never anywhere near its AFUE rating and is not being maintained diligently, I would say go propane.

It's not a clear cut issue though, for sure, and it can vary heavily depending on your region and costs and day of the week

Frenchie

Big heat loss

In a house that big with no insulation, and a high heat loss, a mod-con would seem to be wasted to me. I would still say a nice oil-fired MPO or something along those lines.

Gene_2

It seems to me

that the best bang for the buck would be to address the shell of the home first. Air sealing, insulating, and window work would be the dollars best spent. No matter what kind of boiler you use, the btu's are just spilling easily out of the home.

As far as just using a oil boiler because the home itself is a energy hog, What? So you save a few upfront dollars now on the boiler. So what. You would still be ahead of the game with a mod-con boiler because sooner or later the HO will tighten up the home. Think a mod-con boiler will be cheaper now or later? Food for thought.

Darin

Maine Ken

What is the life expectancy of the mod-con you speak of??? Around these parts when an cast iron oil fired boiler lasts and lasts and lasts it would take a tremendous amount of savings to offset having to replace the mod-con over and over.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

steve novak

This home belongs to a 70 year old man that was actually born in the kitchen of this home. I know for a fact that i would never be able to talk him into insulating, may be the windows because he says he is getting to old to keep putting up the plastic on the windows in the winter.

Gene_2

Well Ken

My question to you is how long does your computer last?
How long does your digital camera last?
How long does your TV last?
How long does your dryer last?
How long does your dishwasher last?
How long does your washmachine last?
How long does your dvd player last?
How long does your refridgerator last?

My sister had a freezer that her in-laws had given her, it was about 25-30 years old. It worked great! When it failed she bought a new one and her electric bill dropped $40.00 a month.
I wonder why that was?

Darin

Maine Ken

Well Darin, that almost came close to an answer.

No one else, to my knowledge, has answered either so don't feel bad.

My point is simple, if the mod/con has to be replaced frequently then 1) how frequently? and 2) is it worth it in the long run?

I don't pretend to know the answer, that is why I have repeatedly asked. Maybe the mod-cons can last as long as the Buderus, Viessmann, Pensotti, Biasi CI boilers. If so then we never need to discuss this again. If not then that also has to factored into the discussion.

I would love to feel confidant offering the mod-cons to people who choose gas. I simply don't have an answer for the homeowner when they ask "how long will this last?" Please enlighten me instead of answering a question with a question.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Gene_2

Ken

I know you would like a concrete answer but I do not think anyone has one. Technology will continue to scream forward and the boilers we are installing today will be obsolete in a few years just like all the other electronic equipment we own. The price of oil. nat gas, and propane all vary greatly across the country. In some place propane is a bargain fuel, in others very highly priced.

Because of the great savings potential with a mod-con, it should not be a option tossed to the side.

I agree with you 100% that you want to have faith in the equipment you are selling and installing in your customers home.

Let me ask you another question (I know you love my questions). How long do you feel a product should be on the market before you endorse it? I believe and correct me if I am wrong that mod-cons have been on the European market for about 20 years. That seems like a good run time to me.

Fuel prices will only keep going higher and customer interest will grow in the "new" boiler technology. You will have customers who flat out want a mod-con. What are you going to tell them?


Darin

Mark Hunt

Ken


If a cast iron boiler lasts 100 years, what will the price of fuel be then?

The Mod/Con boilers are not built with inferior materials and properly maintained they will enjoy a long life. No different with CI boilers. I've replaced many CI boilers that died an early death due to lack of maintenance.

The most important point here is that technological advances allow us to bring REAL fuel reduction to our customers. Span those savings over 15 to 20 years and they are quite substantial.

A brand new CI atmospheric boiler today is no different than the 30 to 40 year old model it replaces. I would never tell a customer to expect a reduction in fuel usage when replacing like for like.

With fuel prices rising the way they are now, heating contractors may be forced by sheer demand alone into the 21st century.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Double post. ooops



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GaryDidier

comparing boilers

Mark,

It is not fair to compare the new CI boilers to those of thirty years ago. Many advances have been made to burner tecknology and increasing efficiencies of the bioler package.

I can take a lot of existing systems and make minor upgrades or changes and substantially increase efficiency.


In my area propane has traditionally been far more expensive than oil so for it to compete on a fuel cost only basis the gas system would have to be far more efficient to creat a reasonable payback period. If the infrastructer for oil is already there it makes it even harder to justify a switch to mod-con gas.

I just sold my first condensing oil boiler [Peerless] with outdoor reset and have high hopes for this tecknology. It is supposed to deliver 94 afue with hopefully higher system effs.

What I see as the main problem for people trying to make decisions on fuel type and equipment choice is personal bias for equipment by the contractor and the varied information consumers recieve which sometimes frustrates and confuses them. It can be very difficult to convince customers you are trying to do whats in their best interests when they recieve contrasting opinions from other contractors.

Lastly, It does not matter what type of fuel or system is installed if it is not followed up with expert care and maintenance. This is an area that needs improvement as many contractors will do installs but not offer service.

My 2 cents Gary from Granville

Maine Ken

Darin, First for the customers that flat out want something, they get it. Second, I do not like to be a BETA tester. That is not the issue I have with the attitude that mod-cons are the way to go no matter what. In those 20 years that mod-cons have been in Europe, are the same ones installed in year one still running or have they been replaced. If I could honestly tell a customer that I could install a mod-con that would save them fuel and have a life expectancy of xxx then I could help decide that way. I can do that now with ci oil boilers.

I am looking for ammo (info) that would support the use of the mod-cons. I am not looking for a fight. I believe in the technology. My customers have a tendency to only want to buy just one heating system every thirty years or so!!!

Can anybody help???

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Maine Ken

"A brand new CI atmospheric boiler today is no different than the 30 to 40 year old model it replaces. I would never tell a customer to expect a reduction in fuel usage when replacing like for like."

Your kidding right!!!!

"The Mod/Con boilers are not built with inferior materials and properly maintained they will enjoy a long life."

What is "long"? To you or I five years may be long, to a good part of my customer base 40-50 years is long.


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

No Ken


I am not kidding.

Show me the difference between a WM CG today from a CG from yester-year.(Not picking on WM)

Why not use coal then?

Not talking 5 years Ken and you know it.

Do you also avoid buying steak since it is so expensive to replace?

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Maine Ken

Again no answer...thanks anyway.

I also do not replace pin coil boilers with the same. They get upgraded to 3-pass and indirects. End result is vast improvements in fuel savings and they won't be replacing them anytime soon.

So I take it there are no answers to HOW LONG A MOD-CON IS EXPECTED TO LIVE.

I don't buy anything without having a rough idea how long it will/ should last. I feel that that is best for me and my customers. I would rather sell with confidence in reliability and longevity. I would think that it is a rather straight forward question, why is it so difficult to answer??????


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Constantin

You already know the answer...

... it depends.

Depending on the quality of the final installation, the mood of the person assembling the boiler that day, etc. you can have widely-varying lifetimes for all sorts of equipment, beyond the usual statistical failures.

The more complicated you make an assembly, the less reliable it will become, all things being equal. Moving parts are usually the worst offenders... so units with fans, variable gas-valves, etc. will be more likely to have a failure than a standing-pilot atmospheric boiler with no moving parts besides the gas valve solenoid.

That said, even the "younger" mod-con boilers seem to please homeowner and installer alike. There were some teething pains like the EBM/Pabst issue at HTP, or the limited recall at WM, for example, but most mod-cons in the US market are rebadged EU units that have a 20+ year track record. So what has to change?

For one, the modern mod-cons are a bit like Arabian racehorses, treat them well and they perform fantastically. Treat them poorly, and they will die. In areas with poor electrical supply quality, I would put in a big line filter and/or a UPS to protect the electrical boards of these boilers.

Along a similar vein, I would watch for temperature in the boiler room and air quality at the intakes. The thinner flue passages in mod-cons have a tendency to pick up more dirt and get clogged more easily than the wide-passaged CI monsters of yesteryear. Thus, annual service becomes ever more important, particularly in dusty areas.

Similarly, I would do what I could to maintain good ambient temperature conditions in the boiler room. Don't let the boilers cook, because the solid-state electronics that run them degrade at an exponentially-increasing rate the hotter they are. The smaller the boiler room and the greater the amount of piping in it, the more important it becomes to ensure that the summer months don't fry the brain of the unit. Insulate those pipes...

In closing, I would have no issue having a qualified, conscientious professional install a mod-con into my home. But I would take the time to ensure that it is installed right, protected from voltage spikes/brownouts, and in a boiler-friendly space.

hr

A % of contractor/ installers

will always be the last to jump in the pool, waiting till all the unknowns are flushed out. Seen it with the change from galvanize and cast iron DWV, to copper, then to plastic.

Personally I, and I doubt many others here have 40 years to wait out the mon con reliability question.

Seems most mod cons have a 15 year warranty on the HX. Offer extended warranties on the components that only have a 1 year factory warranty. Folks buy extended warranties on cars and televisions all the time. Yet another profit center for the contractor, and additional piece of mind for the homeowner.


hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken D.

Nov

Propane (LPG-Liquefied Petroleum Gas) is made out of the same stuff as fuel oil, so the prices generally follow one another

Ted_9

boilers and cars

Why is it that we think boilers should last or be used for decades. We as a society change cars every 3 to 7 years? We want more fuel efficient and stylish cars. Has the boiler/heating industry not done this?(EXAMPLE, Viessmann, stylish and fuel efficient). Cars are changing to hybred and ethanol. Will we really be heating homes using 100% petroleum products in 10, 20 or 30 years? So why do we expect boilers to last that long?

Is our society that messed up?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"