Bubble foil bubble r values questioned

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks!

"A product waiting for an application..."

I have found bubble foil both useful and effective when used as as an external forced air duct insulation. This when cemented to <I>properly sealed</I> ductwork, meticulously cut and fully sealed with aluminum tape. Time factor = ridiculous. Effective insulation level however seems to greatly exceed what would be expected from such a thin layer. In this regard I cannot help but think of Mark Etherton's experiments with Insultarp.

R. Swatton

article question bubble foil r values

Has anybody seen this article in JLCOnline about bubble foil.
I know this has always been an issue, but this might be the end of its use in the radiant industry.

Rich Swatton


http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/44bbe14500090b6b27177f0000010575/UserTemplate/82?s=44bbe14500090b6b27177f0000010575&c=653664cec206f1da209a1190acc07df1&p=1&q=1

John Ruhnke

Thanks!!

Rich,

Thanks a lot for this. I needed something in writing to show my clients. I have known that bubble foil doesn't work well for a few years now. I heard of two reports one by the Utah chapter of the RPA and another by the Canadian Hydronics Council that support this article.

Bubble foil doesn't insulate well under concrete.
I also highly doubt its effectiveness in other areas too.

JR



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Brad White_9

The best use for bubble-wrap

is that it keeps kids occupied for hours...

Jed_2

What about

Insul-Tarp? Mark Eatherton showed us his driveway SIM test comparison. Insul-Tarp isn't foil faced, does the entrainment of the Insul-Tarp bubbles, with the reflective layer on the inside, make a difference?

Jed

John Ruhnke

Insultarp

Jed,

In my opinion, insultarp is only a tiny bit better then bubble rap. It does have a foam layer but that is very thin. The rest of its rated insulation factors are relient on the bubble foil bubble. I bet it would come out at about r3.

You really need two inches of foam at r10.

JR

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Techman

Bubbles

Evening!Is this the same bubble wrap w/aluminum foil faced that is used to wrap AC ductwork?

D107

same product discussed back a few months?

I was interested in this --double bubble I think it was called-- because of the under attic eaves possibilities. Jerry posted this as part of Steamhead thread:

"...I used the foil bubble product that I use for radiant, and you use in your windshield, on my attic re-model up against the roof nailers between the rafters. Staggering difference on heat intrusion. With my infrared gun the surface temp. 50 degrees and more between the roof and downside of insulation only 5/16 thick. It's not about r-value. I added insulation, but without a reflective barrier, that only acts as a heat sink that re-radiates at night....I think having the foil on the outside is the way to go... Remember we're lookin for reflective value, not r-value. Hold a piece of tinfoil an inch away from your face and you'll get the picture. The two manufacs I know are Astrofoil and reflectics...All I know for sure is it works; wicked good...I put it in the walls too where there sun exposure, before insulating. Truly amazing..."

Glen

yes it is and will be debated yet again I think -

regardless bubble foil has it's applications - under a slab (underslap) is not one of them. Stick with 2 inches of EPS.

Unknown

Bingo. You hit the only application where reflective insulation really makes long term sense, IMHO.

Ross_7

Bubble Foil wrap insulation

I only use it when we are doing staple up radiant. Seems to work O.K. No problems as of yet.

Ross

[Deleted User]

I've tested it in staple up applications....

and found it to be only slightly better than no insulation at all with 1/2" sheet rock below it...

Your customers, your time, their money...Spend it wisely.

ME

[Deleted User]

The insultarp I compared....

was fairly thick, like nearly an inch thick.

That equals DEAD AIR.

As I have said before, save the aluminum for beer cans. It's a MUCH better use:-)

ME

S Ebels

JMHO but

Double super triple bubble anything is nearly useless as an insulating material underneath anything. We used it to insulate under an Onix staple up job based on salesman recommendation a few years back and wound up removing it an replacing it with F-glass. The floor worked like a charm after that.

The only really good application I have found for foil faced bubble junk or foil faced thin foam is when it's sandwiched in an exterior wall. We tried it in my kid's new house a couple years ago. The exterior walls are constructed with 2x6 studs and filled with wet blown cellulose. We used a product called Low-E house wrap overtop the 1/2" OSB sheathing and then covered it with 3x10" log siding. The house performs way better than expected and as indicated by HVAC-Calc. Heating is probably 15-20% less than calculated and cooling has to be about 40% below what we were expecting. We designed the system with 3 ton capacity and laid out the duct to cool half of the house at a time. It's about 5,600 sq ft of living space. We were pleasently surprised to find the little 3T chiller will do a nice job on the whole house even in heat like last weekend. (95* with RH in the upper 50 to low 60% range)

I have to think it's the foil faced 1/4" foam making the difference because I have not encountered this on houses constructed the same way except for the foil/foam stuff.

PS The Low-E stuff is not a bubble type product, it's a closed cell foam meant to be used as a house wrap instead of Tyvek. It's perforated to allow the wall the breath.

Rob_37

Low-E Reflective insulation

Glad you mentioned the housewrap. It is a great product. Check out the Low-E website at www.low-e.com. They carry a product underslab called Slab shield. Only gets an r-3 but is easy to work with and is better than bubble.

Rob

D107

good that you perforated the 1/4: Low E wrap

its perm factor is .008, which would be considered quite impermeable which could be a problem in some wall applications. What do you perforate with and how many and large were the holes?

David

Unknown

What isn't better than bubble? slab shield is still outclassed by rigid foam.

scott w.

error with bubble

Have a room that is 15X30 with three outside walls which was a porch that was added to and enclosed, so it ended up with a seperate forced air furnace, removed furnace and installed in floor heat. House has a boiler so upon renovation added three inches of gypcrete with radiant pex tubing on top of bubble foil sitting on top of the original concrete. Last winter I did notice a nice snow melt around the outside walls of the room. Was this a big mistake? Should something else have been used instead of the bubble foil? If so, what would have kept the floor no more than three inches high due to limited masonary door frame height?

Unknown

the job

The job I'm doing now was in the same situataion, only installing the slab heat and cibb for supplemental heat ( due to large windows, exposed walls and carpeting). Have large exposed outside concrete walls.. The owner told to tell the contractor to do what have to be done right..... The carpenter installed 2" rigid insulatiion with foil facing inward and caulked all opening... For the steps, used foamed, better than nothing. Will let the wallies know how did it do this coming winter

S Ebels

It's made that way

The Low-E house wrap is designed as a building wrap and comes with holes punched in it right from the factory. IIRC they are spaced over the entire product at about a 1" spacing.

Unknown

Well, the bubble foil isn't doing much for you. If you were doing a 1.5" pour of gyp, you could have put in 1" of rigid foam which would have been useful if you have 1/2" flooring on top. Even 1/2" of rigid foam would be twice as good as the bubble pack, at least.

tom_49

bubble wrap

For what its worth, I was lucky enough to get a no a/c service call the other day w/ OT at 95o. Upon arrival to the house I was informed by the HO that the a/h is up in attic.

So up I go to the attic in the scorching heat. I was pleasantly suprised when I open up the pull-down stairs and stuck my head up and it was not that hot. I looked up and saw that the previous HO had stapled up reflectix bubble wrap below all the roof rafters and sealed all the joints w/ metal tape. I'll try to post some pix later.

I checked out the temp in the attic, 101o F, not that bad considering it was 95o out and this house was IN the sun!

Anyway, the foil wrap was definately doing something to keep the attic from turning into a sauna.

That got me thinkng about doing a reverse staple-up job on my own attic to heat the pool. Its gotta work.

What ya think??

D107

just had a consult with polyiciline installer

His concern--when I asked him about using bubble wrap as you describe--was its perm factor. Maybe not permeable enough, so that humidity might get trapped between wrap and underside of roof sheathing?

David

Unknown

my thoughts

Excantly my thoughts! With the heat and humidty, where all the moistures go between the foil and roofing material? Sounds to me a soggy deal... Was there a thread in BSC regarding insulations and moisture problems,mold for northern as well southern climate?

Dave Larsen_2

bubble wrap

have heard a rating of R2 at best! should be as effective as old carpet!!