a few boiler questions (need to get a new one asap)

Jim Pompetti

Bruce how did the new install go and would you post some pictures of it?

Bruce_15

Questions about different brands of boilers

My ~25+ year old cast iron Repco unit is leaking, i think into the combustion chamber according to the people who have looked at it (water on the ground, some is rusty).

I've got summer/winter hookup, 151,000 btu (131K net btu), 155 year old, 3000 sq ft house near Philadephia, PA. It is oil with baseboard heat.
The 4 zone valves look good and work fine (Honeywell valves)

I've got theses quotes so far
3950 for an EMF (PK450)
4061 for a Weil-McClain (WTGO-4)
4100 for a Thermodynamic (HT90)
6200 for the same exact Weil-Mclain that I was quoted 4061 earlier in the day (Same place want about 7400 for a Buderus)
One tomorrow I think will be for a Columbia WB125 and should be a around 3700 (getting EFM quote from them as well)

Columbia, Thermodynamics, and EFM are all fairly local companies (Columbia is only like 10 minutes away)

The one that mostly installs Weil McClain said cast iron is what I should get(mentioned no rusting). The others all say steel is the way to, so I'm not sure which is best for my application???

The one place said the Weil McClain are good units, but they are harder to keep adjusted after the units get some age on them. Any truth to that?

Suppose to be freezing over the weekend so I'm trying to decide on thursday and maybe get installed on friday (2 places can do it friday if I decide soon enough)

thanks
Bruce

TJ_4

Bruce,
I always like to recommend Viessmann. Definitely get CI the prices are fair and if you can’t get Viessmann than go with the Buderus with a Riello Burner.
Let us know how you make out.
Go to my web site for more info www.tjsradiantheat.com

Good luck!

chapchap70_2

Wow, still Repcos out there

I didn't think there were many Repco boilers still in service. Even if it wasn't leaking, there are many service men who would want to get that boiler out of there.

A basic boiler burner package that is good is Peerless/Riello. This is a cast iron boiler that is easier to clean than the Weil-McLain in my opinion.

I like the System 2000 but this is a little more expensive. You would get your money back with the fuel savings though.

Both steel and cast iron can last a long time if the boiler is properly installed and maintained.

Bruce_15

tcutler, why do you say cast iron over steel?

None of the places have mentioned Viessman and only 2 mentioned Buderus but I'm not sure if one installs them. I asked about the outside reset and he really only mentioned Buderus saying that is the only company he'd recommend with an outside reset with since they are designed for those. The other was just crazy high priced.

Are outside resets worth it. Sounds like it'll save me money in fuel, but others were saying if it was designed for an outside reset the verying temperatures inside the unit isn't always good. I'll read over your site TJ since I see you mention outside reset there.

The Ultra 2000 would be $9500, taking me close to 10 years to recoup the price difference. It sounds nice, but don't think I can justify the cost difference.

What maintenance is needed besides an annual cleaning?

Dan_15

I've got my boiler choice down to 2 different models.

One has a boiler water capacity of 28 gallons[Columbia WB125, in their five-star series], while the other has a capacity of 40 gallons [New Yorker FR-147].

Is the higher water capacity an advantage or disadvantage?
I'm not sure if I should look at is as 40 gallons will take more time (and oil) to get up to temperature, or if that is offset since I guess it may hold heat better and once up to temp will allow more hot water to flow through the (copper-finnned) baseboards before the burner would need to fire again.

The Columbia is a wet base steel unit and the New Yorker is a wet leg steel unit. Looking at the cutaway diagrams, it seems to me the Wet Leg may actually have more water contact with the heat exchanger surfaces, but maybe I'm thinking about it incorrectly?

Columbia's warranty cover 100% up to the 15th year, New Yorker covers 100% up to the 10th year. Not sure if that is an indication of quality or not?
Still also considering a Peerless cast iron unit but probably will go with one of the above. Peerless has a full replacement warranty, not pro-rated like most others which I do like, since I plan on being in my house for a long time.

The system 2000 was more than double the price of other systems. Even though I plan on being here a long time, I couldn't justify the $9500 price when the others will be a little under $4000. The only place that would quote me on a Buderus was about $8000, again, too much to justify the cost difference. The places I talked to didn't seem to deal with Viessman.
All companies said get the Beckett burner. Any reason you both said Riello?

Any suggestions on the above points is appreciated.
thanks
Bruce

Mark Hunt

So you narrowed it down to


the lowest price I noticed.

Good. It's YOUR money.

Are you looking for some sort of professional sanctification for your decision? We can't give it.

Glad to se you got as many "high" bids as you could though. Good thing they were free eh?

Mark H



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B. Tice

Boilers

I would have went with the EFM. You are getting too many estimates anyway.

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mtfallsmikey

Well,Bruce...

If it's low price,then you already have your answer. If you are after lower cost of operation,and maximum comfort,then you need to pay attention to what these contractors on this board are trying to tell you. I know it's midwinter,and you need heat ASAP,but the wrong choice now will cost you serious $$$ in the long run,and if you are going to keep your house for a long time,you want the best heating system your money can buy,right? I've been out of the biz for a while,but these guys on here won't steer you wrong.

Dan_15

Actually they are not the lowest prices. I've gotten 2 other prices from installers that were lower, I just didn't feel comfortable with those companies, so I didn't mention them. The System 2000 and Buderus installers were $1000 and $2000 more than others for the other brands system(quotes all mentioned the same items) and all have been in business for years, so I felt those 2 were just overpriced.(6000 for a Weil-Mclain WTGO-4 from one, $4061 from another company).
The rest of companies I was considering are within $300 of each other, so the price wasn't what I was going by. Another one wanted $5000 for the New Yorker vs $4000 from another installer.

The people here said go with cast iron, but didn't say why. I wasn't looking for sanctification, just why they recommend CI over steel and if more water in the boiler was better then less water in the boiler.

Wayco Wayne_2

I would have

recommended the Buderus with the Logomatic control. I put one in last Winter and it cut my customers fuel bill by 50%. Runs on outdoor reset and controls the circulators. WW

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ScottMP

Bruce

You've shopped the boiler prices, Now how about shopping the installers.

Who wil gove you the best system ?

Who understands the system they will install ?

Who has done a Heatloss on your home to properly size the boiler ?

There is more to this than just looking at the price in the window.

Scott

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Dan_15

The installer I'm going to use is also the guy who gave me the estimate. I do feel he will do a good job as he did a few others on my street and they look like nice installs and I asked the homeowners who are happy with them. All the others were salesmen so I don't know who would be doing the actual install(I know the salesmen wouldn't be doing it themselves).

None of the places have mentioned doing a heatloss on my house.

Darin Cook_2

Bruce

I am curious. Just how many estimates did you get? So many facts left out here. Maybe the guy who was three grand higher was going to provide you with proper control and piping stratedgies and use the trained experienced professional he is paying twentysomething an hour to. Maybe the low ball guy is going to cut the pipes as close as possible to the old boiler and slide the new one in and couple it together. His installer may be the guy who was just released after a five year bid and did "good" in the correctional plumbing course. Price does not tell all here. It may well be that the high priced guy knows his cost of doing business and is charging the appropriate fee. I am NOT beating up on you here. But realize that there are alot of factors that go into pricing.


Good Luck
Darin

Jamie_6

Bruce,

Personally I love Buderus! It is a sound product, has great technical support, and is extremely versatile. Although, every boiler you mentioned is pretty solid. I do agree with some of the posts above about cast over steal. It's just a better product and you can see that in the price difference. My only question is why where a couple of the companies so much more expensive? Read your contracts! Are they bringing your new system up to code? Adding a low-water cut-off. Replacing everything, feeder, pumps, new gas cock! To tell you the truth all the boilers above do the same thing, PROVIDE HEAT. Some more effectively and efficiently but the outcome is the same. Be more worried about the type of work that is going to be done in your home. A heating system is a HUGE investment. Look at reset especially with the gas prices we are spending now. Why give that money to PECO every month when you can put it in your own pocket?

Attached is pictures of a bunch of the boilers mentioned above. As you can see we install them all. Look close, the boilers are doing the same thing. But look at all the components around them. They all are new.

By the way we are never the cheapest price, but my customers get what they pay for.

Good luck,

Jamie


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Rodney Summers

If you just have copper fin BB

You realy don't need a boiler with large water volume. You should realy look into gettng an indirect tank rather then a coil. Waste having the boiler sit at 160° 24x7x365. Get a low mass steel boiler like the Burnham LE with an indirect. Outdoor reset would help save money in the Spring and Fall, and on mild winters like the one we're having this year. You could add that later. Oil's hitting $70/barrel again. The price of fuel is going up so plan for as much efficency as you can afford now!

Get a heat loss calc done! You might need as big a boiler as the one you're replacing.

clammy

BUDERUS

Oil fired no combustion chamber to have to replace ,vertical internal flue passes ,comes with baffles to help adjust stack temp.None of the other brands even offer that maybe the big V does .Buderus top of that list in quality and the fact that the boiler is very well nsulated means less stand by loss .I have personally install a few oil and gas units and found them to be trouble free when installed properly .Is that job include all the goodies like you know new zone valves or pump ect water prv ? .That's what changes the price unless you don't mind paying to replace all the other parts the italian way pizza by pizza and are these companies willing to honor manafactors warranties ?You pay now or you pay later but either way you pay on install or flue usage peace and good luck clammy BUDERUS

Dave DeFord_3

Bruce my good man..

> My ~25+ year old cast iron Repco unit is leaking,

> i think into the combustion chamber according to

> the people who have looked at it (water on the

> ground, some is rusty).

>

> I've got summer/winter

> hookup, 151,000 btu (131K net btu), 155 year old,

> 3000 sq ft house near Philadephia, PA. It is oil

> with baseboard heat. The 4 zone valves look good

> and work fine (Honeywell valves)

>

> I've got

> theses quotes so far 3950 for an EMF

> (PK450) 4061 for a Weil-McClain (WTGO-4) 4100

> for a Thermodynamic (HT90) 6200 for the same

> exact Weil-Mclain that I was quoted 4061 earlier

> in the day (Same place want about 7400 for a

> Buderus) One tomorrow I think will be for a

> Columbia WB125 and should be a around 3700

> (getting EFM quote from them as

> well)

>

> Columbia, Thermodynamics, and EFM are

> all fairly local companies (Columbia is only like

> 10 minutes away)

>

> The one that mostly installs

> Weil McClain said cast iron is what I should

> get(mentioned no rusting). The others all say

> steel is the way to, so I'm not sure which is

> best for my application???

>

> The one place said

> the Weil McClain are good units, but they are

> harder to keep adjusted after the units get some

> age on them. Any truth to that?

>

> Suppose to be

> freezing over the weekend so I'm trying to decide

> on thursday and maybe get installed on friday (2

> places can do it friday if I decide soon

> enough)

>

> thanks Bruce

Dave DeFord_3

Bruce my good man..

have you read this?
http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=78e

It might lead you to change your mind about who you hire. Someone else asked you if any of the contractors have done a heat loss. You said no. I would suggest that your read the above and then answer the question as to whether or not one is needed. You might also want to see find a professional on the left side of this page - I doubt you'll be sorry. Remember in this world you almost always get exactly what you pay for.

Joe Grosso

Boiler

I think everyone is beating up on Bruce a little. Bruce, if you are comfortable with your Guy,and have seen his work in the area, go with it. I would go with the New Yorker FR myself, between the 2 choices.Very quiet and has excellent combustion efficiency.Make sure your chimney is in good condition, as the low stack temperature it has can cause problems.

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Dan_15

Bruce

Im a homeowner so please do not assume I know anything about boilers. I had an 85 year old boiler replaced with a Buderus/Riello system with logamatic controls and outdoor reset plus indoor reset on constant circulation. I have nearly cut my bills in half. The prices you were quoted for Buderus are not that far off; it cost more because you get more. I implore you to listen to the professionals here. I can tell you from experience that you will get out of your system exactly what you put into it. You absolutely have to do a heat loss calculation in order to properly size your boiler. You need to educate yourself a little bit about what kind of system you have, how many zones, what kind of emitters, piping materials, how much water mass, etc. Educate yourself about outdoor reset. Then go back to your quotes and find out why the boilers were chosen to match your application. There is so much more to this stuff than you may realize. Just as a minor example, you can have big problems later on if you did not do something as simple as using the correct sized circulator pump for your needs. In my case, I was hooking the thing up to a converted gravity system, and it just made huge sense to go with cast iron and constant circulation. Hope that helps.

Bruce_15

The only one that said they’d replace the 4 zone valves was with the System 2000, if that company did the New Yorker, they’d leave the zone valves alone and just redo the piping between the boiler and the zone valves. The zone valves all work fine and are much newer than the boiler itself so everyone said they’d leave that alone and just replace from the zone valves down.

The only reason I can see the others are so much more expensive is profit, quotes all list the same items. Actually 2 companies mentioned Buderus, not 1. The one said it would not be a good system for my situation though, saying copper finned baseboard do not transmit heat very effectively at lower temps that the Buderus would be putting through the baseboards. The other said they are about 25% more than other boilers, so I was thinking $1000 is definitely doable(based on the $4000 quotes), but when his standard boiler price was $6000, that moved the Buderus up even more. The other who said the Buderus wasn’t good for my situation was the same installer that wanted $1000 more for the New Yorker, so he seemed overpriced based on that.

For sizing, they all looked at what I have now, asked how the heat in the house is and if I’ve had problems with the house not getting hot enough. I have no trouble with the house getting hot (I only have it go to 65 or 66) so they said to stick with the current size. If I can get one to do a heatloss, maybe they’d find I don’t need one as large which should save me some money. I’ll see if any of them do heatloss analysis.

Indirect heater…since I live alone and only foresee one other person living in the house if I get married, they’ve said the indirect wouldn’t benefit me too much and might only save me ~10% of fuel consumption. In the summer, I have only gone through about 75 gallons from Mid-April til October. Payback would be ~8 years at $3/gal, over 10 years at current prices.

On cast iron, the cost difference seems to be pretty low compared to steel. I called a supply house and the Peerless was only $60 more than the New Yorker.

Willing to honor mfg warranty…. Honestly I never thought to ask that. Is it common for installers to not honor the warranty, I guess I assumed they’d honor it? Along those lines, what if a company goes out of business, do you just get another local company to handle any warranty issues? All say they will cover everything for the first year.
One company actually doesn’t service any oil boilers over 1 year old, which didn’t sound good to me. They recommend another company for service calls after the first year.
thanks

Dan_15

Buderus with baseboard

Bruce, I will leave it to the professionals here to respond to the data points in your message, but I just want to reply to your comment about Buderus. I have fin/tube convectors in my house, which are kind of like baseboard fins except they look like big radiators. Like baseboard they are high-temp emitters that work best when hot. I have to say that they really work wonderfully with the Buderus logamatic controller. Your contractor's statement that Buderus is badly paired for baseboard is just not true. Your contractor may not fully appreciate the benefits of constant circulation (for Buderus this means using the "indoor reset" room sensor in place of a thermostat). With this setup you can indeed run very moderate heat through fin-tube emitters on a constat basis, that is sufficient to heat your rooms. It is very comfortable and energy efficient.

Joe Brix

We all have budget limits

And sometimes the Cadillac system doesn't make sense in you average home boiler replacement. But oil @ $3/gal doesn't look far fetched the way things are going. If you use only 500 gal a year, at 10% savings (conservative #) that's $150 saved x 20 years (avg life of the system), much more then the cost of the indirect. You can't really use outdoor reset on a boiler with a tankless coil. Tankless coil boilers are usually oversized so you can get hot water and heat at the same time.

I agree a 10 grand System2000 or 15 grand Viessmann is not for everyone, especialy if you only burn less then 800 gal a year anyway. But a properly sized system (hasn't the house had any insulation improvements over the years? New windows or doors?) with an indirect and boiler controls that give you outdoor reset and priority on the indirect will give you most bang for the buck.

It's your money, but think about the 20 years of savings overall.

Long Beach Ed

Leave the Zone Valves?

These guys are quoting you those prices and they aren't giving you new zone valves? Probably no new expansion tank either. Maybe they'll keep those globe valves with the balls of white mung growing out of them too. Afterall, they still work.

And who needs a heat loss calculation? Those are for people who want to send an extra $300 for fun.

Come on man! Didn't this ancient stuff earn its retirement?

Maybe being from New York permits me to be a little more blunt than some of the other advisers.

This sounds like a scroungy job that will cost you big time in the long run. Spending more now will save you yards of money and headaches down the road.

Keeping the old zone valves ?? --- Geez...

Let's see a picture of these hydronic treasures that are being saved for posterity...

Long Beach Ed

Unknown

I agree with Ed

Our policy is to change out everything within a few feet of the boiler - controls , circulators , zone valves , fluepipe , copper pipe . Even if it was installed a few months prior . It is just good practice to start with all new parts for a new boiler .

If you trust a particular company to install the boiler , you can do your own heatloss for the home . To the left of this screen click on Free heatloss calcs . Made by Slant Fin , I believe you can download the program or order it through the mail . Most of the time the boiler is way oversized if you go by what is in there originally .

Personally I recommend the Peerless WBV line as a decent , competitively priced cast iron boiler . I have one in my own home and works excellent after 7 years . Have you looked into the new Burnham MPO ? And how are you handling hot water ?

Dan_15

zone valves

2 said the expansion tank looks pretty new so why replace it. I'm not considering either of those installers anymore for a few reasons.

The valves I will be replacing since some are corroded a bit.

All said they'd put in new zone valves if I insisted, but said based on how the current ones look, they feel it would be a waste of money. I think the previous owners may have converted to baseboard heat and zoned the house, but kept the current boiler. Don't know for sure since I never spoke to the PO's, but I heard they did alot of work to the house.

I see some heatloss calc websites, so may try one tonight but I have no idea what type of insulation are in the walls. I had some new windows installed, and I'm sure the rest of the windows are newer than the boiler. Insulation, don't really think that has been upgraded based on the stuff I can see from the attics.

Long Beach Ed

Yes...

Yea,

We're looking forward to seeing this one...

Al Gregory

Weil-Mclain WTGO-4 from one, $4061 seems more than reasonable for a much better boiler.

Dan_15

I don't have it install yet. Once it is installed and if I can get a digital camera I'll try to post a pic or 2 here.

ScottMP

Bruce

When you buy a new car, do you tell the salesman " My old tires are pretty new so lets put those on the new car and save some money " ?

I would Never change out a boiler and use any of the exsting equipment. Your just asking for problems and the savings really is short term.

JMHO

Scott

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Cosmo_3

Lets just say it this way

If it was my house I would not even think twice of changing everything around the boiler, pumps, electromechanical controls, etc.

But if a customer elects not to have me replace these peripherals on his/her installation after telling them they should I just smile.......'cause I know that this job will be good for a couple non warranty service calls some time in the future, and I make more money changing a zone valve on a service call, than as part of a boiler replacement.

Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.