Ultra Fin: Who has used it

Heatmeister_2

Hot Rod,
I spoke with one of the contractors I am checking into who has Used Ultra Fin on several jobs and loves it. However, I believe most of his jobs have been on new construction. His approach is to come into the joist bay then run the REGULAR pex (NOT PEX AL which Ultra fin recommends) on the opposite side all the way to the end then circle back down along the side he originally came in on and cross over the entry pipe down at the end before going into the next hole.

He said this gives them ability for more density of fins. He also said that before every job he rivets the fins together on one side. He said you can easily still slide the Ultra-fin over the pex and it saves half the time riveting once up.

My biggest concern is heat load, if my older home will heat up enough using high density approach and then being able run lower temps with a new MODCON boiler. If I can do this this gets me to where I want to be. If not and I have to crank up to 160+ it defeats the purpose of going through all the extra work. Otherwise, I may lean toward panel rads which would be very easy given my enfire basement has exposed ceilings now.

Heatmeister_2

Ultra Fin: Who has used it

I came across a newer product today which I am considering to heat my home/floors. Has anyone had first hand experience??

http://www.ultra-fin.com/products/products.htm

Plumdog_2

I have

I used it to provide floor warming in conjunction with a Beacon-Morris toe-kick heater mounted in a custom enclosure beneath the floor between the joists. Installed monoflo tees in the existing baseboard loop, ran about 70 feet of 1/2 PAP to and from the toe-kick, and put ultra fin here and there on the PAP. 1.5 inch rigid insulation underneath and she heats like a charm. These little finned plates really draw the heat out of the tubing; a real viable cross-breed method when used in conjunction with baseboard or other high temp applications. (get a pneumatic riveter and follow the instructions regarding spacing) Do not assume anything with regard to room by room heat loss.

hr

My first one this fall

I'm just now connecting it to the Knight. I worked a deal with UltraFin to do some testing and infared filming of this installation.

To my way of thinking the UF does to bare pex in a suspended method what transfer plates do to a staple up!

It merely increases the heat transfer efficiency. Increasing the heat emitter surface area, so to speak.

I'm sure, like any radiant method, it has limitations, plus and minus features.

hot rod

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kevin coppinger_4

I was wondering.....

if you are running 180F or through it could it be used in conjunction w/ simple outdoor reset say a tekmar 260?....kpc

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hr

OD reset

via the control onboard the Knight.

hot rod

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ALH_4

Ultra Fin

If you have a low heat load, Ultra Fin may work. Response times will be longer than with conductive methods. If you are using a modulating condensing boiler, you want to keep the fluid temperatures as low as possible. Ultra Fin requires relatively high fluid temperatures. That coupled with the practical matter of the number of holes you must drill to install the tubing perpendicular to the joists makes it an easy choice in my opinion.

-Andrew

S Ebels

Not a huge fan

I wouldn't use it except for limited areas of floor warming or in houses with extremely low heat loss. If your house is <15 btu's per sq ft it'll probably work OK, if not, find another method. It demands good insulation underneath to keep the joist cavity "hot" enough to warm the floors. Your water temp will have to be 170*+. This takes a condensing boiler out of it's peak efficiency range. Outdoor reset will also be handicapped by the high temp required for good heat delivery.

If you're after peak efficiency from your system, go for an above the floor panel system that can utilize lower (<140*)water temps. Low water temps are the key to heating efficiently with any hydronic system and the Ultra Fin product requires the opposite.

Plumdog_2

Right on

but it's perfect for adding floor warming to an existing baseboard system with no mixing temperatures or adding pumps.

hr

The Wirsbo design manual

shows bare suspended tube at 20 btu/sq. ft with 150 degree supply. I doubt adding UltraFins would lower the output??

But until I get the actual real world data and output back I can't give say for sure.

I see no reason it has to operate at 170 or higher to do the job.

Like I always say, The floor doesn't care HOW it gets to the 80 degree surface temperature. As long as it does it will put out heat.

Try it and see

hot rod

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kevin coppinger_4

I have aICF ...

house coming up... I am going to give it a shot...kpc

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Heatmeister_2

Looking forward to......

your results. The local rep came by today and gave me the sales pitch. If it does what he says.....it will be the perfect application for me. I have an old home and would have to grind down hundreds and hundreds of nails sticking through the bottom in order to put in place staple up extruded aluminum.

The only question I have is that the rep stated I could do away with my baseboard and ultra fin would do the entire job. I have an older home so I do not know it this could be true.

Please Please post your results soon.

m_4

ultra fin

Not a big fan of it.......High temps in floor cavity!! What will those high temps due to the sub floor over time? It's published that by running high temps over a period of time will reduce the tensil strenght of the floor by over 30%. It works but with consequences.

m_4

ultra fin

Not a big fan of it.......High temps in floor cavity!! What will those high temps due to the sub floor over time? It's published that by running high temps over a period of time will reduce the tensil strenght of the floor by over 30%. It works but with consequences.

Jed_2

good question

What will the cavity air temp be running 160-180º water through the tubing?? UF claims ≈ 105º. Assuming a well sealed cavity, I would think steady state air temp would be much higher, relative to heat flux. Maybe I still just don't understand this joist heating stuff.

jed

Heatmeister_2

JOHN SIEGENTHALER

was referenced by the sales rep that I met with. He said the John recommends this product.

Wondering if I can get confirmation of this?

hr

I'd do a room by room

heatloss calc before you jump in with both feet. Carpeted areas would make me nervous. But the answer is in the BTU/square feet required for the rooms. It's always in the numbers:)

An 82 degree floor will give off about 24 btu/square foot in a 70 degree room, regardless of HOW the floor is heated.

I predict the UltraFin will warm the floor more evenly than a tube stapled to the subfloor without heat transfer plates! This is what I will look at through the lens of the infared camera.

The floor surface temperature drives the btu output.

Siggy is the one that motivated me to install a job and do some testing. I'm not sure he endorses product, however Better get that answer from him.

hot rod

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siggy_3

Ultra-Fin

I was told that I was quoted as "endorsing" Ultra-Fin. In all honesty I try not to endorse any product. Instead I urge people to check out the product. Does it have third party testing? Does it have an established track record? Does it have the right "physics" to achieve the claimed performance?

I do think Ultra-Fin is a fully legitimate product when properly applied. It does have third party testing through Warnock Hersey. I have spoken to several people who like the way it performs. It does have, in my estimation, the necessary physics to work properly.

I recently designed a project using Ultra Fin with dense plate spacing and a condensing gas-fired boiler. The more plates the lower the design water temperature. I was planning to stay at or below 140 F supply at design load conditions.

Compared to some of the untested plateless staple-up installations that we hear of on an almost daily basis, Ultra-Fin has a definite advantage of significantly increased heat dissipation area. I don't have exact numbers in front of me but the increased surface area for convective and radiant emission is likely several times greater than that of bare tube, especially with high plate density. The more area a heat transfer device has the better it transfers heat for a given temperature differential - just basic physics.

I feel the product would work very well with continuous circulation and outdoor reset of water temperature through a mixing system. In fact we are looking at just such an application at this time.

I do think it's prudent to be sure the joist bays are carefully air-sealed at the sills and that the underside insulation is installed properly to provide the necessary air space. It's also a good idea to bring the water temperature up gradually when first starting a system with "wet" floor framing (joists and subflooring). I also prefer to insulate or otherwise block off drainage traps in the floor deck to minimize trap seal evaporation from the warm surrounding air.

These are just some impartial observations from someone who has looked at the Ultra-Fin product and feels it is a legitimate and capable option in a wide field of radiant hardware choices.

I for one will be very interested in the IR testing that Hot Rod is doing with Ultra-Fin, and thank him in advance for taking the time and allocating the resources to do it.

siggy

Steve_117

I was considering using the ultra fin system. What is cconsidered dense plate spacing?

Steve_117

Dense plate spacing

I was considering using the ultra fin system. What is considered dense plate spacing? What would be the dimensions? When I used their software, I came up with the plates on 32 inch centers. I guess to lower the water temp (I have a condensing boiler)you have to tighten up the spacing?

Scott Gregg

one more question

will high operating temps cause drying out and possibly warping of the floor joists?

hr

I actually ran the tube with

the joist, not against them. I'd rather screw up their Snake Clips than drill a couple hunderd holes.

I ran one tube per bay (16" on center) then put an Ultra Fin every 36".

I fired up the job yesterday. A Lochinvar Knight running 130 degress F.

I had all the zone valves locked open all day as I purged and finished up the wiring. At days end I went upstairs to find the thermostat reading 80 degree!

Granted we had a fairly warm day, but I have no doubt the product will provide evenly warmed floors. As soon as the hardwood installer finish, and hopefully the weather cools down I will infared video the entire job.

hot rod

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Steve_117

Hotrod, I am also using the new knight boiler. What type of insulation if any, are you using under the plates? I look forward to seeing the results of your testing. I plan using this system with carpet in several rooms. Will you be doing any testing with carpet?

hr

6\" fiberglass

The house has a heated basement, so all the UF areas are over heated space.

Pay close attention to the rim joist insulation detail. I like to see this area spray foamed to seal all the infiltration. Or foam blocks cut to fit and foamed in.

One bedroom will have carpet. That just changed from hardwood this week!. It is a separate zone but will get the same supply temperature. Be interesting to watch the difference between it and the hardwood and tile areas.

hot rod

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Heatmeister_2

Spray foamed

Hot Rod,
Can you explain in more detail the spray foam approach. I do not understand how to spray foam and also maintain the appropriate air spacing? What is used to maintain the cavity before foaming or are you referring to the rim joist area?

kevin coppinger_4

I believe what he ...

is refering to is sealing up the outside wall area between the joists...not the joist bay. kpc

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hr

Rim joist

also known as the band joist. This is the joist that sits on the mudsill or bottom plate. The floor joists attach to this "band"

So that area where the joist attach to the rim is where you want to cut blocks of foam, the depth of the joist, and the width of the spacing. Then push the foam into the spacy and use spray foam around the blocks to plug any wind leaks.

Yes, if you need to leave an air space, as in UltraFin installations, you will need some "dry" insulation system like fiberglass batts or a bubble foil first then batts below.

When I do a transfer plate system, then we foam right against the plate and subfloor. We are dealing with all conduction transfer and no need for air space.

hot rod

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Heatmeister_2

Thanks

All is clear.

hr

Excellent tips! Here are some more

I, too, ran two tubes per bay. I find this easier than threading the entire loop. Yes, it give you the ability to add additional plates and I staggered them.

I also added some transfer plates for a couple feet on the outside walls just to cover my butt. I was worried about the higher load areas with lots of glass on the exterior wall.

I'm anxious to see how the plates compare to the UF with the IR camera.

I also pop rivited one side of the UF and then snapped them on the tube. It is always easier to work on a bench than overhead.

Invest in the pneumatic riviter and add a swivel for the air connection.

A lightweight air hose helps a lot also for overhead work.

Magnetic gloves are REAL handy for keeping fasteners at "hand"

hot rod

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Heatmeister_2

Awesome info

I also posted another email. Looks like this is new construction. Is this PEX or PEX AL or does it matter? Also I am pretty sure that it is 5/8" OD Pex right? Lastly are your hanging 3" below the floor?

Thanks again.

hr

I like PAP

for the underfloor applications including transfer plate jobs. It moves around a lot less than regular pex. It also stays formed at the bends and puts less strain at the loop ends and joist penetrations.

It does take a bit more care when installing to avoid kinks.y

Yes, 1/2 pex or PAP is 5/8" od.

Some day I want to try some Ultra Fin on copper tube. Should be an excellent emitter, and less $$ than fin tube.

I also jammed some UltraFin on some Watts rubber ONIX Although I haven't done much comparing yet.

hot rod

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