Just recieved a $1,400 gas bill

David_30

Thanks

Wow, I wish my plumber knew that. I'm having a hard time finding a local pro that works on a conversion burner and can do combustion testing. If/when the input is adjusted what should I expect in terms of changes? Does this impact the venting requirements? Also, I posted a message below that perhaps you have an opinion on. Here it is again:

One problem I noticed before but didn't think it was a big deal is the fact that the boiler has two risers to the header and three takeoffs to mains and each takeoff is between the risers. In Dan's book he says that the takeoffs must be between the last riser and the equalizer. From reading the book it sounds like this can cause water hammer (which fortunately I've never had) but what else can it cause? Can this be causing high gas consumption?

Steamhead (in transit)

Try looking at

the Find a Professional page of this site for someone who can handle your boiler. I would still consider replacing it, but now that we've found at least one problem, a pro might be able to get it running well enough to help you save up for the replacement.

The header design is definitely not the best, but as long as you're not carrying water into the steam mains you should be OK. It was much easier to get away with non-textbook headers on older boilers than it is with new ones.

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Matt Undy

Anticipator, cyclte time, underfiring

He already has the anticipator set for a very short cycle time and he is getting a very long cycle (unless it is set to 5 instead of .5). I am guessing that firing to the output insted of input is the problem. If there is not enough heat to produce much steam but mostly just heat the water to a bare simmer, this is very consistent with the long cycles and inefficient transfer of heat from the burner to the building.

Did someone flood the boiler to look for leaks? Careful to not let it go up into the system or the piping will likely move and cause water hammer problems. If this is a sudden change, perhaps a leak is the problem.

What is the change in amount of gas used compared to last year in a period of similar climate? Remeber December was unusually cold. Here in Michigan, the cost of gas has about doubled over the past 4 years, so you have to look at the CCF used, not the charges.

Also, the quesiton of if it has a presusretorl or vaporstat has not been answered. once it is fired properly, the vaporstat could improve efficiency enough to justify its cost. Superheting the steam to get the couple psi to trip over a pressuretrol will transfer a lot less heat to the system.

The person that sets the proper firign rate also needs to make sure the draft is right. If there is too much draft, as mentioned earlier, the heat won't stay around long neough to transfer to the system, it will jsut go up the flue.

I have jsut rehashed what was said before. I don't think any of these things are too time consuming to be anywhere near as costly as a new system. It sounds like all of these things except for the leak are the problem and it was installed and converted by people who didn't really understand steam systems or conversions.

You also need to find out how much radiation is in the house. If the boiler is not sized to produce the same amount of steam that the radiators consume, it will short cycle and be inefficient, even if you fix the current problems (this may have been why it was underfired in the first place).

Good luck

Matt

Matt Undy

pressure switch

I just noticed that one of the pictures does show the pressure switch. The flex to it and the coupler below it look pretty new. When was it repalced? What was there before, a pressuretrol or a vaprostat (a vaporstat has a much lower pressure range setpoint than a prssuretrol. I'm not sure if anyone explained that).

Matt

Darin(in Michigan)

David- Wake Up!

I just want to make sure you haven't gotten lost in the shuffle. Please let us know what you find. I'm really curious to know. Thanks and good luck!

David_30

Update

So far I've determined the following: No leak in the boiler. The thermostat was defective, replaced with a new one and now getting about 1 15-25 min cycle every 70-90 mins on typical cold Boston days. I have an energy audit lined up but based on my own review and discussions with the prior owner I think the house is well insulated with normal to minimal heat loss. I'm using approx .7 therms per degree day now vs approx .4 therms per degree day last year. The boiler appears to be underfired based on Steamhead's comments above (but it hasnt been changed in the past year). I'm trying to find a Boston area pro who can conduct combustion test on a conversion burner. I've tried find a pro with no luck so unfortuantely moving on to the dreaded yellow pages, referalls, etc. This is painful...

Matt Undy

contorl problem

What is the pressure swing now? What was the pressure swing before? I wonder if the diffferential on the pressure control has changed (you never answered if it was a pressuretrol or a vaporstat, but from teh picture and the description that it was at the minimum setting, I think it is a pressuretrol). What was the burner on cycle time last year with the old t-stat?

As somone mentioned erlier, it would be a good idea to make sure the pigtail for the pressure switch is clean.

The burner should be cycling under the pressure control until the t-stat is satisfied. Either ther pressure controlwas always incorrect and the t-stat was compensating and not has failed, or the pressure control has become sticky so that it takes a bigger differential to kick over. When it was running cycles an hour long, what pressure was it building? Perhaps the control will never kick over, perhaps its contacts have welded(if its not mercury) or some internal parts have broken or corroded.

If the pressure control is bad, the burner will be firing too long on recovery from a lower tempurature even if the t-stat is good. The low cycle time of the t-stat is just a band aid for the pressure control problem. (if i'm right about the pressure control malfunction and there isn't some reason the system just isn't building pressure).

How long have you been having the previous fuel consumption? have you been there for years, or only a year or 2?

Is the boiler sooted from the underfiring(I'm thinking it is probably a control problem because it happened suddenly, presumably while it was sitting unused over the summer).

I though Boston was one of the hydronic and steam centers of the US...Maybe you shold try posting a seperate thread asking just for refferals to steam and conversion burner pros in Boston.

Matt

GW

Boston Pro

I'm in Western Mass but I will be in Billerica the week of the 30th. I have a few extra tools up my sleeve: Combustion specialist, Blower Door diagnostics (your house may be well insulated, but if it isn't air tight you have big problems), and last but not least I'm a certified thermographer (I can find the nasty problem areas with my IR camera).

I can stop by and do a digital combustion check/tune, please email me off line and I'll tell you what my fees are. If you're interested in driving those bills down big time, you'll need me for a 1/2 to full day to nit-pick your entire house, and give you a proverbial grocery list of things that need to happen.

Gary Wilson
gary@wilsonph.com

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GW

header

do you think it will pick up water once the burner gets met up with the friendly drill bit? increasing the BTUs up to 427 (or 400 if that's the capacity of the burner) will certainly cause the boiler to "come alive"

As far as chimey size, one would assume that the boiler and chimney were there at the same time, but it's possible that the new codes may object to several factors here.

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GW

gas hotter than oil?

A BTU is a BTU. the heat comes from the "lack" of O2.

I get a chuckle out of these 90% condensing furnaces with O2 up around 10%, yet a finely tuned oil unit that is "rated" for 85% will have a nice O2 reading of 3 or 4%. There is no way the gas is running hotter than the oil in the illustration above.

gary

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GW

Pressure

I'd be shocked if the boiler is building pressure if it's truly a 5 section boiler, which it seems to be.


David, has anyone, or yourself, counted all the radiators and come up with a total sq. ft. steam rating?

Gary


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