CO, if you test, you don't really know? j. davis?

JL_2

> test in the lab and then do beta tesing in the <BR>
> field and make comparisions of both. The truth is <BR>
> a lot of things can change from day to day but if <BR>
> proper adjustment and set up is done and testing <BR>
> is within safe perimeters then burner variations <BR>
> are minimal to say the least. The BTU content of <BR>
> the fuel has been a recent issue but here locally <BR>
> it has seemed to subside now that gas supply <BR>
> people are aware of possible increases in BTU <BR>
> content on purchased LNG. I have been monotoring <BR>
> several jobs that in the past had problems and <BR>
> they seem to be doing fine.<BR>
> <BR>
> As to burners <BR>
> stability and the possiblity of things changing, <BR>
> that is why I recommend testing every year. <BR>
<BR>

jp_2

stability of CO after adjusting

if you've made an adjustment on a burner to reduce CO, can you guarantee that 'set-up' all season long. I don't mean "you" personally, but more 'can the burner guarantee.'

so:

if the adjustment is made during summer, 100F outside, somewhat damp 55F in the basement.

or:

the adjustment was made during a dry period, no wind and somewhat even temp inside and out.

or:

very cold outside windy,

last:

33F outside, raining very damp.

I'm asking if the burners o2,CO, etc will stay the same throughout these varing conditions.

theres a lot of gripes around here about the manufacturer not setting up the equipment.

I think the real question is: is it possible for a 'one size fits all,' which i would think is no!

this question also arises from tim Mc. statement that "we don't do lab experiments". if you do not do controlled experiments how could you varify consistent outcomes?

Guy_6

Good thought

I can say that the combustion settings that we had recommended at my previous position were middle of the road. By saying that I mean that they would lean out toward the bottom end of the scale in winter and richen up slightly in the summer months. Occasionally in difficult climates we would have to push toward one end or the other.

Jim Davis_3

year long burner operation

Lots of ways to look at this but lets look a the simplest. Water heaters run year round, 0 degrees and 100 degrees plus, windy, not windy. If you set up an appliance correctly, your settings should maintain themselves year round with the exception of the Btu's of the fuel. Fuel Btu's are most likely their highest during mild weather with less demand. Under extreme load and demand, at least natural gas, the Btu's may tend to drop. Recent articles have stated that this is no longer seasonal, but can actually occur daily. From conversations with other the Btu's of natural gas can flucuate up to 10%. This means we have to compensate at least this much. There are two things that are critical in guaranteeing that equipment will run the safest and most efficient year round under all conditions. Thes are combustion air and venting. If these are not totally controlled or regulated then it doesn't matter what we do, there is still a time bomb ticking. Combustion air must be mechanically supplied or there is no guarantee. Chimneys must have barometric control and rain and wind caps or there are no guarantees. These both control air to the burner and if they are not controlled we have a crap shoot. I have set up furnaces on warm days and checked them several years later on cold days. They still maintained the same settings. The only thing that will change is temperatures. When equipment is running under little or no load it does run hotter but this can be interpretted fairly easily.

No one can guarantee control failures, excessive lint, pet fur, dirt etc. This is why in most cases additional safeties need to be added to equipment to cover the things we can't control. I learned years ago that the best way to approach anything is to ask the question "What if?"

One last edit. I would never recommend or teach any method of working on equipment in the field that wouldn't work 100% of the time under all conditions. So far, after 23 years of teaching new methods, nothing has ever failed to work. No safety issues, no maintenance issues.

Unknown

JP when did I

happen to say that and in what context? I am getting old and do not remember what I said an hour ago much less longer than that. Help me out here.

By the way I agree with Jim's answer.

jp_2

long time ago

we were in a heated discussion, my memory is not always the best either. but i think it was in a CO discussion. didn't mean that statement in a degrading manor, apologies if you took it wrong.

the point is: if you install a system, test and adjust, its really not real world, but more labratory conditions.

heres why:
if you do all this within a couple of hours(burner adjust), its likely that no conditions change, wind,temp,humdity,etc. so in a sense you are setting the equipment up under only one condition.

thats the reason for this thread, how do you know adjustments are really in a stabile position.

from what jim says below, its makes me think the manufacturer tests in real world conditions, otherwise I would think jim would be saying "the dang things never stay in tune".

going after why lots of people here say manufacturers don't do real world. this is one question.

question for you Tim.

do you know the accuracy of the typical residential gas meter? I see they only read down to 100cf incriments, your best guess below that seems to be +-20cf?

so it seems month to moth readings could be off by 20-30cf, which i admit isn't much.

jp_2

no response tim?

Unknown

jp, sorry but I am very busy with seven different

projects going at the same time and I do not have time to post like I used to. The answer on the meters is that they are removed and tested every 7 to 15 years depending on local requirements. After all that time they must be within + or - 2%. Most meters do not run fast they usually run slow. If for some reason the overage was in favor of the utility they must rebate a percentage to the customer.
The folks who tested meters at the company I worked for would tell me that meters were usually off less that .5%. So they are pretty accurate. As far as using the meter to clock a burner it is a good idea to use the 1/2 foot dial and let it go around twice for better accuracy. You then of course have the human delay of starting and stopping the stop watch. There are much more accurate measurements available for use in a lab. Things like flow mmeters and BTU meters along with a caloric measuring system that most gas supply people at utilites use to determine the BTU content of gas sent out on a daily basis.

Unknown

I believe most manufacturers

test in the lab and then do beta tesing in the field and make comparisions of both. The truth is a lot of things can change from day to day but if proper adjustment and set up is done and testing is within safe perimeters then burner variations are minimal to say the least. The BTU content of the fuel has been a recent issue but here locally it has seemed to subside now that gas supply people are aware of possible increases in BTU content on purchased LNG. I have been monotoring several jobs that in the past had problems and they seem to be doing fine.

As to burners stability and the possiblity of things changing, that is why I recommend testing every year.

JL_2

Excuse my ignorance but

I am just know getting into reading flue gases on 90% boilers. I believe I have the process down and unserstand it. Can you take reading on older 80% boilers with a single wall vent? Where? How?

jp_2

good post

so do you agree that the manufacturers do represent real world situtations with their equipment? after all you can not send out a water heater that will be properly set up to run in every situation out there, or can you?

Glen

another question -

I am about to "beta" test several different analysers. Kane May Quintox, Kane May 900, PCA 25, Eccom Commercial model and two from the latest offerings from KW Electronics in Waterloo. All this in a known boiler that is tested regularly - as some are euro models - can I expect wide variances due to the different methods of calculating efficieny on both sides of the pond? And as some of these are programmable to calorific value of the nat gas - should allowance be made to the 950 - 1050 btu'cf that are regular in British Columbia? Why the comparison?? Partially because I am a curious sort of fellow - and partially because I am kicking tires for a new machine. I like to pack one that is gas only (Quintox) and one that sees both oil and gas (PCA).